Borders in USA to close

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by porkupan

Yes, they did hurt some local book retailers, though in the long run, I think, they helped a lot more than they hurt. The "hurting" had mostly been in the big cities. And I doubt the majority of book buying public was seriously upset about the demise of "mom and pop" bookshops replaced by spacious deep catalog superstores-cafes. But it did hurt some people I am sure.


There had been no bookstores in most suburban communities before the big chains. Nobody was hurt by them coming into these communities, into the malls and shopping centers. Borders (and B&N) provided space to browse, shop for books and gifts, spend time with kids reading and picking books, have a latte.

This is right. ~95% of the population never had access to a good indy bookstore in the first place; for these places, Borders and B&N vastly increased the availability of books and were an unalloyed good.

It is very understandable that for many people reading and bookstore are not related. Amazon reviews, kindle and $25 free shipping provide enough incentive to bypass the browsing. In addition, the ebooks play into the internet-driven culture of instant gratification. But for many of us the killing of bookstore is a huge loss. I know we are in the minority - otherwise Borders wouldn't have been in the place where it is today...


The question is, when five years from now Amazon finally succeeds in killing off the last standing competitor, what will replace the bookstore? Libraries? In today's culture of incessant "wasteful spending" cuts that's unlikely. Starbucks? Walmarts? What?

*Bookstores* aren't dead. Borders is dead. Amazon still only has 15% of the US book market. I suspect that all (or almost all) of the cities losing a Borders will still have a B&N.

One of the issues with B&N and Borders is that they aggressively (over)expanded in the '90's. A large number of cities formerly served by a Waldenbooks and a B. Dalton (smallish mall bookstores) suddenly found themselves with both a Border's and a B&N, both located within 1/2 mile or so of each other, and each several times as large as the two mall bookstores put together, and both open until 10 or 11 at night. It was wonderful if you liked to read, although it was always kind of an open question whether many of these cities really had the market to buy so many books, and whether Border's and B&N were wise to compete so directly for customers in such a low margin, high volume business. But it seemed to work for about 10 years or so - and then Amazon started gaining marketshare. And then Walmart, Target, and even supermarkets started carrying discounted bestsellers, which are where Border's and B&N make most of their sales (Amazon, of course, doesn't).

Border's was the weaker store, due to various management issues, and basically cracked under the pressure.

There is still a large market for bookstores, and B&N should get some relief, as the customers who formerly shopped at Border's will now go to B&N - probably almost doubling their potential customers.

Who knows what will happen in 10 years, though.

[cfrizz]

Nine times out of ten, the folding of a business comes down to their own greed, meaning they expanded themselves right out of existence.

Businesses don't want the competition to get ahead, so let's park ourselves right next door & make the customers choose.

Except they all have the same books at probably the same prices and the same clueless kids doing customer support.

Then I look online, see the same books at Amazon at lower prices, so I can buy all 3 books I'm interested in, rather than just one at one of the BM stores, and get them with free shipping. Amazon wins.

Competition is a good thing, but over aggressive expansion on both sides with not enough positive differences to make it right for US the customers, is just idiotic.

Just because Borders is gone, it doesn't mean that B&N will ultimately survive.

[jabberwock_11]

I hear many folks talking about the down fall of small independent stores being caused by big corporations or that one of the reasons that Borders died off is that they were a large corp. with little regard for their customers, but I think that what most folks forget is that almost every single huge corporate store began as a small well loved independent store that did things well and took off. Borders began in my hometown, Ann Arbor, MI. The owners opened their first stores in the 70s and tailored each of their stores to the community that it was located in. They did well because of it, eventually BECOMING a large corporation.

Most so-called indie stores end up taking the exact same route that Borders did, they do something a little bit different and they do it well enough to become the dominant force in their market. Corporations are neither soulless nor evil, they are what happens when good business meets innovation. They may make the mistake of becoming too homogenized or of growing too large too quickly, but they are an inevitable product of a planet that thrives on giving people what they want: a proven product in a familiar package.

If some indie book store profits from Borders' demise then I am sure that with enough profit and attention that they will end up following a similar path. Indie businesses ARE businesses and while doing something you love is the reason that many of these places start, profit is always a big part of the point. We get up and slog to work because they pay us, not for the betterment of mankind. Even doctors and firefighters get upset if they don't get paid.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by jabberwock_11

Most so-called indie stores end up taking the exact same route that Borders did, they do something a little bit different and they do it well enough to become the dominant force in their market. Corporations are neither soulless nor evil, they are what happens when good business meets innovation. They may make the mistake of becoming too homogenized or of growing too large too quickly, but they are an inevitable product of a planet that thrives on giving people what they want: a proven product in a familiar package.

Sounds fatalistic to me, things are how they are perhaps because the path is easy, although such business practices are not sustainable economically as well as ecologically, the latter being the more important factor IMO.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

1. I would first look at inward and ask myself the question: Why are so many people having such a negative reaction to me? I would not assume that I'm some kind Nietzschean superman who is being resented by the hoi polloi.

Uh, what? Who said anything about "so many" people having a negative reaction? My only small, local bookstore is run by an "elitist". I don't feel comfortable walking into the store and asking questions because I'm invariably made to feel stupid. Thanks, I'll shop at B&N instead, and good riddance to that local store.

It's like shopping with Comic Book Store Guy from Simpsons. You've never experienced this? I find that hard to believe.

[Joonbug1]

I gotta agree with the poster above in that the "indie bookstores" I've been to have an air of snobbishness about them that's uncomfortably palpable and judgmental that you don't get at Barnes and Noble or Borders.
It's sad to see a big mainstream bookstore giant like Borders in this situation.

[stonetools]

Politics and Prose is a well known independent book store. From its website:

Another reason to support your local Indie . . . .

The most successful and enduring independent bookstores survive because of their deep and genuine roots in the community. Politics & Prose is no exception. We are continuously thinking of ways to promote reading, thinking, and discourse and to engage more people in our shared cause of good books.

One excellent example has been our Book-a-Month gift program, currently orchestrated by talented booksellers Liz Sher, Kerri Poore and Amy Kane. Liz manages gifts for adults, while Kerri and Amy select the books for children and teens. Each of these two programs has over 100 recipients. The idea was to avail the curatorial expertise of our P&P staff to people from other places. So far, it has been wildly popular for out-of-towners, but also for regular and local customers who simply enjoy the fun of being directed to books they might not otherwise read.

With Book-a-Month, our staff carefully chooses books based on information you provide about your gift recipient’s interests, hobbies, favorite books and writers, and literary genres. Each month, we send a new title to the reader getting your gift. We ship anywhere in the world, so don’t worry if the object of your affection lives in Ouagadougou or Ulan Bator. We ship to APOs and DPOs; we always have a few of them -- right now there's one State Dept. family in Moscow who gets adult and children's books. They said it's a way for them to keep in touch and remember us, and they love it! Our booksellers also will be happy to correspond with the gift recipient to discuss book selections and areas of literary interest.

LINK

I really don't see anything as innovative and hands-on even possible with B&N, much less Amazon.

P & P is famous for hosting book events in which the locals can meet with political leaders and opinion makers from DC. THey also host 18 book clubs that meet there every month. They are not just a bookstore: they are a community hub. Their closing would leave a hole that really can't be filled by Amazon or any online forum.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by jabberwock_11

I hear many folks talking about the down fall of small independent stores being caused by big corporations or that one of the reasons that Borders died off is that they were a large corp. with little regard for their customers, but I think that what most folks forget is that almost every single huge corporate store began as a small well loved independent store that did things well and took off. Borders began in my hometown, Ann Arbor, MI. The owners opened their first stores in the 70s and tailored each of their stores to the community that it was located in. They did well because of it, eventually BECOMING a large corporation.

Who then sold themselves to KMart.

And that was the problem.

If they had gotten big and kept the same philosophy, that would have been great. But they didn't.

I'm not dancing on their grave, but I'm not shedding tears, either.

[Hellmark]

Not all indie book stores are snobbish. The ones that seem to have the best attitudes in my opinion are the ones that bill themselves as second hand or used book stores. The various indie book stores I've been to, the used bookstores always seemed to have employees that were genuinely interested in that sort of thing, and would try to be helpful to their customers. There is one over by where my girlfriend used to live, that I really wish was closer to where we are now. The people were really awesome. I went in just browsing, only a book or two in mind to try and find, and I walked out with a stack and a smile on my face.

[Pinecone]

There are good and not so good small indie bookstores.

There are good and not so good bigger stores.

Patronize and support the good stores (regardless of size) and don't do business with the not so good stores.

[anamardoll]

I'm sad that Borders is closing, because it's a tremendous loss of jobs, but also very frustrated that management didn't do enough to forestall this.

This Sunday we went grocery shopping and -- look! -- there's a big Borders right across the street. Let's go see the new Kobos while we still can!

Oh, look. It's Sunday so the store isn't open until 11. And the groceries in the car are getting hot in the sun. Drat.

There were literally people lining up and on the outside benches -- at least 20 people waiting -- to be let in when the store opened in 30 minutes. And you know that for every one person that bothers to wait, another 5 just go home without bothering.

Apparently that particular Borders felt that catering to the early morning grocery shopping crowd on a weekend was less important than making sure all its employees were GETTIN' RITE WIFF JESUS. Despite the fact that I'll bet half the employees don't go to church and would prefer to get a paycheck to feed their families. Gah.

[fbrII]

There is still a large market for bookstores, and B&N should get some relief, as the customers who formerly shopped at Border's will now go to B&N - probably almost doubling their potential customers.

That is a possibility but I think is more likely is a significant share of Borders book business will be lost. I read in England (I believe the article was on Teleread) 50% of Borders sales were probably lost and not picked up by other book sellers. The thinking was impulse buyers and buyers looking for Christmas, Birthday, gifts etc., who dropped into the local book store, out of convince, dropped into some other kind of store to buy their gifts or satisfy their shopping impulse.

I also have concerns about other ripple effects. I live in a city where Borders had eight locations, (three closed after the initial announcement) within twenty to thirty miles from me. What concerns me is that's eight malls/shopping centers who will be losing their lead stores.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Not all indie book stores are snobbish. The ones that seem to have the best attitudes in my opinion are the ones that bill themselves as second hand or used book stores.

Agree 100%. Just trying to battle this notion that if a store treats you poorly it's because you're a terrible person and deserved it. (luqmaninbmore seems to have some sort of personal grudge against Kail Yuga.) And that all indie bookstores are always "good" or "better" than the corporate bookstore.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by queentess

Uh, what? Who said anything about "so many" people having a negative reaction? My only small, local bookstore is run by an "elitist". I don't feel comfortable walking into the store and asking questions because I'm invariably made to feel stupid. Thanks, I'll shop at B&N instead, and good riddance to that local store.

It's like shopping with Comic Book Store Guy from Simpsons. You've never experienced this? I find that hard to believe.

The comment was directed to Kali Yuga in response to his statement about the owner and the entire staff having a bad reaction to him. And, no, I don't get that kind of reaction when I go to book-stores. The staff are generally happy to have customers. Heck, I don't even get that reaction when I go to comics shops. Maybe I'm just too vanilla or something.

[luqmaninbmore]

Originally Posted by queentess

Agree 100%. Just trying to battle this notion that if a store treats you poorly it's because you're a terrible person and deserved it. (luqmaninbmore seems to have some sort of personal grudge against Kail Yuga.) And that all indie bookstores are always "good" or "better" than the corporate bookstore.

I don't have any personal grudge against [her/him]. I remember [her/him] espousing view points that I agree with whole-heartedly in other threads (from some time ago). But I am no friend to capitalism and I will criticize it. Maybe the part of the country in which y'all live is different culturally from the Mid-Atlantic. My experiences in book stores have ranged from business-like to cordial. The only time I've had any tension is when I've brought my children into the store and that's understandable given the havok that a toddler can wreak on books.