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Old 12-15-2010, 02:15 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by abookreader View Post
I agree that judgment and content are important, but also feel that it isn't unreasonable of the author to be provided with the standards the content is going to be judged upon. Selena Kitt is a well established author. She sells many, many books and some of the books in question of hers that have been pulled have been for sale at Amazon for over a year with no explanation other than "they violate our content guidelines - go away."

However I maintain that Amazon is clearly being unfair to Ms. Kitt in not providing her with an answer and clarification of what is and is not acceptable to them beyond the "Our standards are about what you'd think they should be" wishy-washy language that is in their TOS. Please, I'm sure they have a lawyer or two around the Amazon building who could churn out something better than that -- don't you think?
The authors may well have a legitimate issue with Amazon, but that depends on exactly what their contractual agreement is.

Did Amazon ever make a public statement about pulling that pedophile guide that caused such a furor?
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:15 PM   #107
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Then we'll have to have any books removed that have anything in them that mentions anything illegal even if it's as innocuous as jaywalking. That means goodbye to a heck of a lot of books.
Yes, I think that was what mr ploppy was getting at. The whole "slippery slope" thing.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:18 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by DixieGal View Post
I disagree. You are my friend regardless of your religion, and I hope you feel the same toward me. That said, Christian, Jew, atheist, or miscellaneous have codes of conduct based on what is considered right or wrong by society at large. Incest never makes Santa's "nice" list.
I base my friendship on the person and not what religion. I won't go "You are not Jewish so I do not like you.". That is stupid. I like people for who they are as a person.

But sometimes it's more fun to make the naughty list.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:18 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
Huh? What standards are you talking about that one book must meet but what you call a "holy book" doesn't?
If the criteria is "books containing incest will be removed," then the bible should be removed. If the criteria is "books designed to arouse with incest should be removed," then the Flowers in the Attic series is fairly suspect--while erotica isn't the main point of the books, there's a lot of focus on the relationships. If it's "erotic content" that's suspect, then the Kama Sutra should be removed.

Two of those are "holy books." Should they be exempt from removal because some people consider them religiously important?
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:23 PM   #110
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If the criteria is "books containing incest will be removed," then the bible should be removed. If the criteria is "books designed to arouse with incest should be removed," then the Flowers in the Attic series is fairly suspect--while erotica isn't the main point of the books, there's a lot of focus on the relationships. If it's "erotic content" that's suspect, then the Kama Sutra should be removed.

Two of those are "holy books." Should they be exempt from removal because some people consider them religiously important?
Who said that any of the criteria you cite are the reasons the books were removed?
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:23 PM   #111
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But sometimes it's more fun to make the naughty list.
LOL! Santa got tired of writing my name on the "naughty" list and had it permenently inscribed there!
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:31 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
Who said that any of the criteria you cite are the reasons the books were removed?
They might not be. But the authors haven't been informed why their books were removed, and it's very reasonable for them to insist on that information--it keeps them from wasting their time submitting new books that Amazon won't carry.

Of course, Amazon is not legally required to be reasonable; they're free to delete books on the grounds of "this one has a character with my mother in law's name, and I hate her, so I'm blocking it." And I hope that people realize the current lack of information makes them exactly that capricious--they're using criteria they won't explain, and seem to be biased toward someone's personal tastes or whims.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:31 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post

Umm...you must have meant this as irony, right? More horrible things have been done in the name of one bible or another than any single factor I can think of.
I don't believe in the magical nature of the Bible myself, but I am perfectly willing to accept the usual assertion that the evil done in the name of the Bible only uses the Bible as an excuse for evil that would have been done anyway. For purposes of this argument, however, it doesn't matter whether one accepts or discards this assertion.

If the bible doesn't make people do evil, then neither would this other book, so why ban it?

If the bible *does* make people do evil, and you still allow it to be sold, what besides rank prejudice makes it okay to ban this other book?
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:32 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by DixieGal View Post
LOL! Santa got tired of writing my name on the "naughty" list and had it permenently inscribed there!
“When I'm good I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better.”
--Mae West

“When women go wrong, men go right after them.”
--Mae West
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:39 PM   #115
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Sure there are. Alternative 0) Don't be intimidated by a bunch of prudish busybodies into pulling objectionable material.
They aren't. There is actually a lot of offensive and/or erotic content on Amazon, and I see no indications that they're going to wipe it all overnight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by catsittingstill
Alternative 1) Pull the book from the store, but leave it on the personal archives of people who wanted it enough to buy it. Amazon has pulled books from the store for various reasons (mostly legal, I thought) in the past--didn't they handle it this way then?
No. They wiped it from their databases, deleted it from the reading devices, and issued an automatic refund. People subsequently went through the roof.


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Originally Posted by catsittingstill
Alternative 2) Pull the book from the archives also and refund the customers for the book whether they delete it from their Kindles or not.
...except they still bought it, and can read it indefinitely. They just have to back it up themselves. Hence, IMO "minor issue."


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The author shouldn't have to guess.
The author knows what she wrote. I think she's got a pretty good idea of what's going on.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:45 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by catsittingstill View Post
If the bible doesn't make people do evil, then neither would this other book, so why ban it?

If the bible *does* make people do evil, and you still allow it to be sold, what besides rank prejudice makes it okay to ban this other book?
As others have commented, if this were law or government we were talking about, I'd agree with you. But we're not talking about bans of any kind.
We're talking about a private business choosing what it will and won't sell.

It's not book banning, it's not censorship.
They are not a public utility, they are not public infrastructure.

If you think it's bad company policy, then boycott.

As the non-kindle users are quick to point out, there are several other ebookstores that carry all the same stuff. There are plenty of places to get incest erotica, or hard core porn, or terrorist manuals, or whatever you like.

The aspect of this that I personally find objectionable is the idea that Amazon has promised to keep stuff you buy archived, and they seem to be breaking that promise. I don't like that.

ApK
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
Who said that any of the criteria you cite are the reasons the books were removed?
The web page that started this discussion is linked in the first post. You can get helpful context there.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:53 PM   #118
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The web page that started this discussion is linked in the first post. You can get helpful context there.
There are a bunch of assumptions there. There is not a statement from Amazon on why it has done what it has done.

But it sounds as if their agreement with Amazon cedes a lot of power to Amazon, and they knowingly entered into the agreement.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:54 PM   #119
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Many people think my religion's texts are prurient material. And as a teen, I read parts of the OT with prurient intent.
Yeah, I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole, ya sick bastard.


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Originally Posted by Elfwreck
Not if they actually define what material is not welcome in their bookstore, and apply that across all content.
There's no way that is going to work.

Any statement that is sufficiently flexible to cover the massive varieties of work, and the minor variations therein, is going to inherently have enough ambiguity to make the resulting applications seem vague and/or inconsistent.

For example, Dumas' The Lover may be viewed as a work of aesthetic, cultural and social importance; others may say its ethical implications outweigh or destroy the alleged values. I cannot imagine any workable TOS that can sort out those kind of nuances. Nor, really, would Amazon telling the author "unsuitable erotic content" really change things.


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Originally Posted by Elfwreck
They may not have the legal right to remove them from their servers, as the Kindle sales pitch claims that you can re-download your purchases at any time. Short of a court order requiring the removal of the books, removing access may be breach of contract.
Yeah, no. I'm not seeing anything in the TOS which says they will provide you with perpetual backup copies, from now until the end of time.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:55 PM   #120
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As others have commented, if this were law or government we were talking about, I'd agree with you. But we're not talking about bans of any kind.
We're talking about a private business choosing what it will and won't sell.
Yes, I understand that. I'm using "ban" here as a shorthand for that.

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Originally Posted by ApK View Post
It's not book banning, it's not censorship.
They are not a public utility, they are not public infrastructure.

If you think it's bad company policy, then boycott.
I think it's bad company policy, and I am using my freedom of speech to say so here. In part to persuade others who hold different views to see things my way--or at least to see other aspects of the issue that may lead them to moderate their views.


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The aspect of this that I personally find objectionable is the idea that Amazon has promised to keep stuff you buy archived, and they seem to be breaking that promise. I don't like that.

ApK
Yes, this is the part I find (most) objectionable too. But the other issues also hold some interest for me.

Yes, Amazon is a store, not a public utility, and it's possible to find the material in question elsewhere and anyway stores have a right to sell what they want.

But when Amazon represents such a major part of the market, decisions they make affect the availability of material to the general public, and the livelihood of authors. I am not suggesting that Amazon should be controlled by some other entity to prevent it, but I think that does matter, and commenting on it is a legitimate use of the public square.
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