Kindle or EPUB?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Mange

There's another solution. In Sweden and Germany the publishers no longer use DRM. Instead the watermark solution is used and you no longer have to think about what kind of ereader to get

But would it not be easy enough to open the ePub and remove the watermark?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But would it not be easy enough to open the ePub and remove the watermark?

So? It's easy to remove DRM too.

I'd be pretty happy with watermarking. Some page saying "Bought by Paul Durrant on 14th October 2010 from <bookseller>." would be fine by me. Apart from anything else, it would help me keep track of where and when I bought my ebooks.

[Mange]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But would it not be easy enough to open the ePub and remove the watermark?

What's the point?

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Mange

What's the point?

To protect yourself. Lets say for example you store all your books on your laptop. Your laptop is then stolen and the person who steals it decides to upload all your ebooks to the torrents. Since said person has no incentive to strip the watermark, the copyright holders could decide you were responsible and sue you for violating copyright and then you would have to prove you didn't do it... not exactly an easy thing to do.

--
Bill

[Bookworm_Girl]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

Bookworm_Girl
Thank you for taking the trouble to take that photo. It is the best photo I have seen of the Kindle 3 AND the 505. The Kindle 3 certainly is impressive. You're right, I just need the 350 for comparison. I take Bill's point but the contrast really is a lot different. The question is: Where is the eReader shop that stocks all the different brands and shapes and sizes, so that we can go in and try them all?

Hello, nowthenmobile. I admire your sense of humor about your search for the perfect ereader for you. I found a thread for you that I think will be helpful.
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98171

The original post that started the thread has a link to a review of the Kindle 3 versus the 350. The article has loads of photo comparisons. It also has a comparison to the 600 which you now have hands-on experience with to help evaluate the other photos.
http://ireaderreview.com/2010/09/10/...ny-350-photos/

I wish there were a shop that stocks all of the ereaders too. I have only ever seen the Sony models on display at WH Smith & Waterstones in southern England. Borders UK used to have other brands, but unfortunately they are no longer in business. Maybe someone who lives in the UK can offer you other suggestions where to look. In the US, at least we have one electronics store that now stocks the Sony, Kindle and Nook. I am lucky that I live in an area where I have access to a variety of stores. Not everyone has that opportunity and that's why the people on this forum try to help each other.

I like to read the public domain books too. One of the things I like about the Kindle is that with the wireless access you can download non-Amazon books direct to your ereader without having to hook up to the computer. For example, I like the way that feedbooks.com formats their public domain books. You can use the Kindle web-browser to go to the mobile-version of the feedbooks website and just click a few buttons to download the book direct to your Kindle without having to plug in the USB cable. Project Gutenberg and even the mobileread forum have similar capabilities. Not a "necessity" but still a neat feature to save me some time. I assume this feature works the same in the UK too.

If you think that you will mostly read public domain books and you really want a 6" screen, then I think the Kindle 3 would be fine for you and your family as an introductory ereader. Maybe you could find a good deal on ebay on a 300 for the library books in the future. I am sure there will be lots of people upgrading to the new Sony models who will want to sell their last generation ereaders. Or maybe the 350 price will drop for the holidays or soon after. I think that overall the prices will continue to drop on all the brands in the future as they compete with each other. Many people think the market hasn't reached the "sweet spot" yet for low-price. The Kindle 3 Wifi-only comes close though.

[Mange]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

To protect yourself. Lets say for example you store all your books on your laptop. Your laptop is then stolen and the person who steals it decides to upload all your ebooks to the torrents. Since said person has no incentive to strip the watermark, the copyright holders could decide you were responsible and sue you for violating copyright and then you would have to prove you didn't do it... not exactly an easy thing to do.

--
Bill

Bill, what you say is true, but I for one find it farfetched. If I'd be that paranoid I could always go to lengths to make my laptop unusable should it get stolen.

A representative of the German ebook market stated that since they started with watermarking and removing the DRM, they haven't had one case of piracy.

But thoughts arise about the whole idea of stealing. And stealing digital and copyrighted material.
As you say, the person stealing the laptop probably hasn't an incentive to remove the watermark, but the theft and the uploading is a different matter. There obviously is some kind of incentive to do that. But what?
What makes a person do things like these? I've always wondered why someone would buy(!) a picture, movie, song, album and now ebook and then copy it and upload it to strangers
Or scan a paperbook (imagine the work behind such an act) and then upload the digital version of it.

I guess people like this leads such poor social lives and by doing this they hope to get some kind of recognition.

"Hey, look at me - I'm a loser - but if a go to a lot of trouble and give you, bribe you, with these digital baubles - will you accept me or even like me?"

When thieves get their hands on physical goods, money, jewelry and such, they usually don't give that away. Or do they? Maybe all thieves are like that - looking for acceptance by bribing.

Just some thoughts about stealing.

Take care,
Mange

[nowthenmobile]

Mange
If I may trespass into your psychoanalysis, I would like to suggest that many people do not even consider the breaching of copyright to be theft. I think that they are able to maintain this mindset because they would not be prepared to pay for a copy of a book and if they take a copy of a book, this has not stolen the original. It's like being able to steal sweets from a shop but without the sweet jar ever emptying. I, personally, was set this example by my father and mother. Right now they have a filing cabinet full of photocopied sheet music. There computer is full of pirated software. I was exactly the same. I was incredibly honest (possibly obsessively so) in every aspect of my life but I was helping myself to other people's intellectual property. I knew it was wrong but I had been so desensitised to it that I considered it to be a very very minor issue. It's like a friend of mine said: "I don't have a problem with pirating software - I know that I would buy it if I could afford it." Oh that's alright then. Isn't every thief exactly the same? It took me almost 40 years to wake up to the fact that actually I have absolutely no right to use other people's intellectual property unless they say I can and unless I use it how they say I can. I think that what helped me to understand was when my wife considered publishing some music. When you are the creative one, who owns the intellectual property, it all becomes very clear. I am ebarrassed that it needed me to have a selfish motive to be able to improve my integrity. Anyway that's enough confession for one day.

Bookworm_Girl
Those photos are fantastic. The Sony 350 does look like it has a stunning screen. There may even be something to be said for the 5" screen. I suspect that reading from it may be quite comfortable actually. The new e-Pearl screen appears to be a bit of a game-changer.
There is something about the K3 that is not clear to me: Can you surf all the internet or is it only Amazon and Wikipedia? It seems to be free to surf the internet with Wi-Fi but does it cost to surf the internet if you do it with 3G?

Thanks

[Bookworm_Girl]

Originally Posted by nowthenmobile

Bookworm_Girl
Those photos are fantastic. The Sony 350 does look like it has a stunning screen. There may even be something to be said for the 5" screen. I suspect that reading from it may be quite comfortable actually. The new e-Pearl screen appears to be a bit of a game-changer.
There is something about the K3 that is not clear to me: Can you surf all the internet or is it only Amazon and Wikipedia? It seems to be free to surf the internet with Wi-Fi but does it cost to surf the internet if you do it with 3G

I thought you would like those photos for comparison. The new screens are quite impressive indeed! I think you would probably be satisfied with the contrast on either the K3 or the 350. As you say, I think the new Pearl screen is a game-changer too. I am saving my pennies so that I can upgrade from my 900 to the 950.

Lots of people really like the size of the 5" models. I have never used one that size so cannot comment one way or the other. I do love the touchscreen capability of my 900 though. To me Sony has the better user interface. It's nice to just tap your way through the menus. I keep hundreds of books on my ereader, and Sony has a better collection management system to organize your files. I use the dictionary a lot, and it is nice to just tap the word to see the definition. I also like to view my books as cover images rather than a list. The Kindle user interface is very simple and intuitive to use but not as flashy as the Sony. One analogy could be that Sony ereader organizes its content like a file cabinet that has multiple drawers. The Kindle ereader is like a file cabinet that only has one drawer, and some content in that drawer is in file folders and some is just loose-leaf sheets.

In the US you can surf the internet for free with 3G. I think it is also free in the UK. My understanding is that for other European countries not everyone has the same internet access or free bookstore downloads depending on what has been negotiated between Amazon and wireless companies. You should double-check with Amazon UK support or someone else that lives in the UK. However, don't have high expectations for the browser. It takes some patience for the pages to load and then zoom to read. But, would you really need 3G? I don't use it on my 900. I mostly use my ereaders at home, and when I travel I have more books than I could possibly read stored on my reader to keep me entertained. I am happy to have the Kindle Wi-fi only. The extra savings was well spent on a cover and two books.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Mange

Bill, what you say is true, but I for one find it farfetched. If I'd be that paranoid I could always go to lengths to make my laptop unusable should it get stolen.

What about your ebook reader? It might not allow you to make the books unavailable to others.

A representative of the German ebook market stated that since they started with watermarking and removing the DRM, they haven't had one case of piracy.

At least not that they have identified. I suspect the pirates might be uploading the books from other sources... or removing the watermarks from books they might have purchased.

But thoughts arise about the whole idea of stealing. And stealing digital and copyrighted material.
As you say, the person stealing the laptop probably hasn't an incentive to remove the watermark, but the theft and the uploading is a different matter. There obviously is some kind of incentive to do that. But what?
What makes a person do things like these? I've always wondered why someone would buy(!) a picture, movie, song, album and now ebook and then copy it and upload it to strangers
Or scan a paperbook (imagine the work behind such an act) and then upload the digital version of it.

In some cases, they do it because they feel like they are liberating the information. In others though, they may have found a way to profit from the piracy.

I guess people like this leads such poor social lives and by doing this they hope to get some kind of recognition.

"Hey, look at me - I'm a loser - but if a go to a lot of trouble and give you, bribe you, with these digital baubles - will you accept me or even like me?"

When thieves get their hands on physical goods, money, jewelry and such, they usually don't give that away. Or do they? Maybe all thieves are like that - looking for acceptance by bribing.

Just some thoughts about stealing.

Take care,
Mange

They are looking for something.. usually profits, but sometimes they have a social or political agenda they are trying to forward. Sometimes they might do it to justify the books they download from others.

--
Bill

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

To protect yourself. Lets say for example you store all your books on your laptop. Your laptop is then stolen and the person who steals it decides to upload all your ebooks to the torrents. Since said person has no incentive to strip the watermark, the copyright holders could decide you were responsible and sue you for violating copyright and then you would have to prove you didn't do it... not exactly an easy thing to do.

--
Bill

Actually, a simple police report (laptop stolen) would put you in the clear. And if the thief was dumb enough to upload the books with the watermarks intact it might even be possible to trace him through his IP address and recover your laptop. Tracing him would be even easier if he gives the files to friends and/or relatives.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Actually, a simple police report (laptop stolen) would put you in the clear. And if the thief was dumb enough to upload the books with the watermarks intact it might even be possible to trace him through his IP address and recover your laptop. Tracing him would be even easier if he gives the files to friends and/or relatives.

Perhaps it would put you in the clear, but that is just a for instance. Your computer could be hacked... perhaps someone clever rights a virus to send them ebooks off of people's computers.

As for tracing the IP address, again, possible but I think rather unlikely. Not that it couldn't done, but more because the police wouldn't want to expend the resources necessary for a case like this...

--
Bill

[nowthenmobile]

Bookworm_Girl
So, can you surf any websites or just a select few?
Thanks

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

To protect yourself. Lets say for example you store all your books on your laptop. Your laptop is then stolen and the person who steals it decides to upload all your ebooks to the torrents. Since said person has no incentive to strip the watermark, the copyright holders could decide you were responsible and sue you for violating copyright and then you would have to prove you didn't do it... not exactly an easy thing to do.

--
Bill

If that really concerns you, you should be using a whole disk encryption system on your laptop, such as many companies use on theirs.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If that really concerns you, you should be using a whole disk encryption system on your laptop, such as many companies use on theirs.

Maybe, but that only solves the problem of the laptop. You still have to worry if your reader is stolen, or if you loose the SD card that has a copy of your ebook collection, etc. Digital watermarking is in some respects worse than DRM, with Digital watermarking, if your books are found on the internet you will essentially be presumed guilty until proven innocent.

--
Bill

[FF2]

"will essentially be presumed guilty until proven innocent"

Only in Louisiana - otherwise it is innocent until proven guilty. Show police report of stolen or lost item.