Is piracy likely to harm ebook sales?

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

You could always tell them they are available. Most places you can download things from will have some way of adding a comment. Also, if you don't already, you should put details of where to buy them from or where to send donations to at the beginning and end of your ebooks so that people who want to can pay for them after they have read them for free can do so.

Thanks! We hadn't thought of that...posting where they're being downloaded, I mean. I don't really know where...just have been informed they're available, but I can put my readers onto it. I'm sure they'll ferret them out.

I LOVE THE INTERNET!

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Giving away free PDF is going to get people to go take a run to the darknet to get copies that they can actually read on their readers. Even if the copy they get is so-so, I think they may go back for more. You need to give your free books away in real eBook formats.

And I was looking at the site and it's not easy to find what formats you support. You really need a revamp of the site and selection. If it's all PDF, then you'll tank. You'll be needing Mobipocket & ePub at the very least.

Hmmmm....I really don't mean to be rude, but you didn't look very hard. It's posted several places that there are several formats offered in the full download. Epub, prc/mobi, LRF, txt, pdf, etc. The minime format is pdf, prc and epub. Again, clearly explained.

The only thing up there that's ONLY pdf is Carolyn's current project. I'll suggest to her that she at least do a minime format, i.e. epub, prc and pdf. the other freebies are available in, at minimum, minime version.

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by kacir

On the main page of Closed Circle there is link named
Download and File Format Help
It will take you to http://www.closed-circle.net/WhereItsAt/?page_id=598

I wish other e-book distributors were so well informed ;-)

I need a hugs and kisses emo! Guess this guy'll do:



We really are trying hard.

[JaneFancher]

[QUOTE=BillSmithBooks;853929]...the publishers have the exclusive right to publish those works (because the authors are suckers)...[quote]

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? A lot of backlist is trapped in old contracts made at a time when the home computer, let alone the internet and ebooks, wasn't even a glimmer on the horizon. Even contracts made in the last ten years were made before writers truly began to comprehend how the ebook market was going to go. And bottom line, I WISH publishers would come up with an equitable solution because the last thing I want to be spending my time doing is setting up yet one more website, converting ebooks and doing all those things I think the readers deserve to have. I'm a writer, not all these other thing.

Publicity is the hardest because at heart, we writers are hermits.

At Closed Circle, we're going the DRM free route because we want to work with, not against, our readers. But in doing that, we're cheating ourselves of exactly those benefits of new technology that every other entertainment source revels in. How many copies of the same movie have people bought because they went from tape, to dvd to blueray?

Frankly, we respect our readers. Most authors do, whether they've taken a year out of their writing schedules, as we have, to learn and try to understand the ebook market, or not. Most we talk to are watching CC carefully to see how it works out for us. But it's scary, it's confusing, and it's a hell of a lot of work.

All I'm trying to say is, please don't draw conclusions unless you've walked in our shoes for the past ten years.

In turn, it's time to make stars of the authors (mostly independent) who do get it. When you find someone you like, buy their books. Tell your friends. Promote their works on your blogs and Facebook posts, etc. -- tell your friends, "You have got to read this."

Turn the people who "get it" into the big stars of the publishing world.

If a few of these books hit best-seller lists and achieve high sales levels, the readers and authors have made their point and the industry cannot ignore those successes.

Can't argue with that!

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Buy em second hand and send the author a picture of the book w/receipt.

How about sending the author that picture along with 50% of what you paid for it? Remember, they made far less than the used book store owner on the initial sale, and nothing on the purchase you just made.

Seriously, you could include in that a note that suggests to them they ask their agent or, better yet, a lawyer whether or not the publisher owns e-book rights. Publishers are now trying to claim that e-book rights are inherent in old contracts. This is not so, unless specifically outlined, but they're trying to intimidate authors into believing it.

Better yet, invite them to mobile read to help them understand there is another way. Help them realize what a great community there is ready to help them.

Try working with the authors, not embarrassing them. Please.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by JaneFancher

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? A lot of backlist is trapped in old contracts made at a time when the home computer, let alone the internet and ebooks, wasn't even a glimmer on the horizon.

And, let's face it, there's at least one publisher who is grabbing the ebook rights anyway, although the contracts they made didn't address them.


And well - bluntly no. Quite simply, I have a fixed budget for books, and whenever possible possible (when they are DRM-free and priced reasonably) I buy ebooks. Encouraging high prices, an attitude of entitlement simply because books are in ebook and not paper form and DRM by paying, even to the author directly, is imo wrong and would simply reduce the amount I spent on new books and ebooks - I buy quite a bit from authors who are only epublished, and from Baen.

(Heck, I spent a fair amount of my budget on RPG game books, which are near uniformly very reasonably priced and are watermarked PDF's rather than DRM'ed, despite being more expensive to produce in terms of layout and images - and yes, I've worked on RPG's, as well as computer games)

I've also tried to work with authors directly, to have at least two (Stross and Scalzi) be extremely rude to me on several occasions, seriously reducing my willingness to do so in future. I've worked with Baen authors in the past on side projects with no issues, and will continue to do so, but they've already "seen the light" from my perspective.

(As a note, I also don't buy from authors who try and tell me I don't have my basic legal rights, which applies here)

I haven't bought from Closed Circle, and now won't.

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

In all seriousness, have you considered checking to see if there is any e-book building talent in your fan base? Would they do some work for acknowledgement.

Remember, backlist piracy is done by fans of the works....

It would certainly make sense, yes? But by the time we realized the marvelous help available, we were already deep into the puzzle and it's hard to wrest a writer free from a puzzle.

Besides, much of what we want to offer is the books we wanted to write, not the ones NY turned them into, so we're doing little bits and pieces of editing as we go along. That's not something readers can do. The physical conversion processes can be done at night while we veg in front of the TV.

Our readers are great. They offer suggestions after we put the books out. We make changes to the files and offer the new files for free to all who have already purchased. Time consuming, yes, but it means that ultimately we'll understand what we're doing and have a process that turns out the books as we want them viewed.

(We won't even get into the question of covers! But in case you're interested, I've got slide shows of my covers in progress on my blog While learning about epublishing, I also had to renew my acquaintance with art and learn about computer art! Wheee....been a busy year!

Most of our readers have felt they're some of the best looking books they've seen yet. As I think I said, we're working on the ToC's and embedded fonts problems now, (on suggestions made by readers along with hints how to do them) so they'll only get better.

I really shouldn't even be up here...we're trying to keep a low profile until we're really ready to go with more of the backlist (and new books) on the "shelves." But...there ya go!

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Yes, the $3.97 is the printing fee for the book. This isn't a book with a large (10,000+) print run produced on an offset press, where the cost of a mass-market paperback is under $1. This is a print-on-demand operation using large format laserprinters to produce each book individually. The book is a 236 page paperback, 8"x5.25".

Wow! Where are you having it printed, what's the binding like, and can they handle BIG books?

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Or you could sell your e-books somewhere else. Maybe here? http://www.closed-circle.net

Heh heh...thanks for the plug, but CC is just that. Just the three of us. Books get too complicated beyond that. However, Book View Cafe
is another story. We're trying to get the time to get hooked up with them. Just found out about their operation at a convention last month. Got home and between serious Post Con Crud and Taxes, we haven't been able to pursue it. But it's very much like a large version of CC only better organized. It's a place for authors to sell their own works. Wish we'd known about it a year ago! But we're going to "bond" with them RSN.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by JaneFancher

How about sending the author that picture along with 50% of what you paid for it? Remember, they made far less than the used book store owner on the initial sale, and nothing on the purchase you just made.

Seriously? Wow, that is some seriously delusional thinking. It amazes me how many authors I have spoken to on boards like this who believe that it is the customer's responsibility to actually campaign for the right to spend more money. Look, if you don't want people buying second-hand paperbacks, then you need to make sure there is a first-run format that they'll want to buy instead. For example, many video games have started putting bonus content on-line that is only available to the first person to register the game. If you buy it second-hand, you don't get the content, so that is an incentive to buy the game new. Similarly, I prefer to buy my books in ebook form because I don't have the storage space for 900 print books. If you offer me an ebook version of the content I want, and you price it at a fair price---I am not saying free or $1, but I am also not saying 'same as the hardback' and certainly not 'same as a hardback when a $6 paperback has been on sale at the bricks and mortar store for the last decade'---then I will prefer to buy the ebook. If you don't offer the ebook, well, your loss.

The problem is not that customers are not voluntarily emailing two dollars to the author every time they buy a used paper book in the absence of a suitable e-alternative. The problem is that authors have not yet banded together under some sort of union or author group or something and pressured the agents to start negotiating better deals. This is not the reader's fault. I am not saying it is necessarily the author's fault---entirely---either. But it is absurd to me that you expect people who would but it new if only you would let them that it is their responsibility to voluntarily send you money to cover the loss you incurred as a result of this missed sale.

[DawnFalcon]

Ficbot; There's absolutely nothing stopping people from trading the accounts tied to the add-on content as well. It's a badly flawed and highly, highly unpopular idea for games which has already impacted the sales of several games doing it.

(The only place you can really get away with it is in sports games, which /are/ yearly by their nature)

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by Dellaster

Coincidentally I just bought one of her books from that site. The formats provided in the "full" $5 download: .epub, .prc, .pdf, .rtf, .txt, .lrf, .fb2, .lit, .pdb, .pmlz, .rb, and .tcr in a 10.6 MB zip file. Yes, all of them at once. Downside? Twenty-four hours to get the download before the link dies. Put 'em in a safe place.

I do agree that the web site should be clear about what you get.

Does this help? http://www.closed-circle.net/WhereItsAt/?page_id=5

Twenty-four hours was the default of the shopping cart plugin we're using. It's what I've experienced for most small business downloads and for the most part at CC, we've had no problems/complaints. Those who have had a problem getting to it in time simply contact us, we check to make sure the purchase was legit, and send a new link.

The software to track and provide secure links ad-infinitum like Baen or Amazon is really beyond us, monetarily.

Also, I should add that when a better version of the product comes available (like the ToCs I'm currently putting into the 'NetWalkers books) an announcement is made on blog and CC and a simple email request will get you a new download link.

Yes, we encourage everyone to make copies of the files and put them in a safe place. Once you have them, if you lose them, it's like losing a physical book. The difference here is, you can have one on your reader, one on your computer, one on a cd one on your TB backup drive...I think you get the idea.

We don't have a problem with you sharing with your family. We only ask that once the kids leave the house, they buy their own copy!

[JaneFancher]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Seriously? Wow, that is some seriously delusional thinking. It amazes me how many authors I have spoken to on boards like this who believe that it is the customer's responsibility to actually campaign for the right to spend more money.

Not at all. I was responding to the suggestion that someone made that you take the time to send the author a picture of the book and copy of the receipt. I was suggesting that instead of simply pushing the author's head more deeply underwater, you extend the drowning author a helping hand.

I'm trying to help you see what it means to be an author in this day and age. In order to write the books you all want to read, an author needs to immerse themselves in a totally different world, to channel several different personalities and keep them sorted. It's hard enough to balance that with things like doing the dishes, calling the plumber (or doing it yourself because you haven't made enough on the last book to afford a plumber). You add to that getting current with the changes in technology and "do it yourself" publishing, and life gets pretty darn full.

Do I expect people who buy used books to send me anything? Not at all. People apologize all the time for asking me to sign a used book. I just say, thank god it got into the hands of someone who appreciated it.

I consider the whole used book process to be rather like the piracy question: getting my name into the hands of people who might be interested in buying my books.

If you've been following my posts at all, you'll realize I am one of many authors trying to get you your ebooks.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by JaneFancher

It's hard enough to balance that with things like doing the dishes, calling the plumber (or doing it yourself because you haven't made enough on the last book to afford a plumber). You add to that getting current with the changes in technology and "do it yourself" publishing, and life gets pretty darn full.

Sorry, but this is exactly the attitude I am talking about. We ALL have to do these sorts of juggling acts in our jobs. I really resent the idea that some authors seem to have that being authors makes them a special flower immune from these realities.

I do realize what's involved. I started my working life in freelance journalism, and you know what? I hate the hustling. I hated the DIY-ness. It just did not work for me and I did not make enough money to pay my bills. So I decided I was happier *just* doing the writing, when and for whom I wanted to. And the trade-off was that I had to find something else to do to pay my bills. That's LIFE. IF you want to call it your career, your income, your livelihood, then you have to do the drudge work too because every single career has components like that. EVERY career. I can't even tell you how much time, in my new career as a teacher, I spend on non-teaching stuff like playground duty and writing up, for admin purposes, conversations I have with parents. It's part of the job. And if this is your JOB---not a hobby, not just for fun, but a JOB---then it is YOUR responsibility to keep up with what needs keeping up on, and DIY what needs to be DIY'ed. And it is INSULTING to expect your paying customers to feel sorry for you because that is your job.

As I said---it is not entirely the author's fault. But it certainly is not the customer's fault, either. And it is not their job to 'extend the drowning author a helping hand.' That is your agent's job. Or, your own job. Band together. Form an author's group. Put a website telling customers who you have been writing to and what steps you are actively taking to get the problems solved so that they really can buy the books they want legitimately. Think outside the box. Do SOMETHING! But suggesting that a customer who has spent the money to legally buy a book second-hand because nobody would offer it to them first-hand should then voluntarily spend more money just to help the author out? That is insulting.

[DawnFalcon]

Never mind, serves me right for trying to be helpful to an author. Again.