Operation E-book Drop: For the Troops

[Verencat]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and I got to say I'm fairly disappointed. Steve Jordan is informing us that he has found a nice way to bring confort to people he cares about. Good for him. Now, shouldn't we be inspired by him to find other ways to help and bring comfort to people we care about? Wouldn't it be the nice and fair thing to do right here, right now?

There is so little we can actually do to influence the situations and issues that have been discussed here, and there is so much good we can do for other people. We should never forget it, even if we feel the need to debate

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by gollu

Harry, I am a great fan of English football and the Premier league... But we are really now.

Actually, as Verencat pointed out, the subject here was about a program that does something nice for the troops... not about the morals of war, or of any particular person participating in or supporting it.

Which means that pretty much everything in the last six pages is .

Just sayin'.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by HarryT

desertgrandma,

Until the man comes out of his coma and is able to be interrogated, any speculation as to his motives can be nothing more than speculation, and I don't think that's very productive - do you? Terrorism is one possibility, yes, but equally so is the possibility that he merely went on a random shooting spree at his place of work, as regretably have postal workers, college students, etc, done so in the past.
Don't you think it would be better to wait for the facts?

I don't know if you read this editorial in the "Dallas Morning News", but I agree with every word of it:

No, Harry. The man jumped on a table and yelled "Allahu Akbar" before proceeding to massacre his fellow servicemen.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...ort-Hood_N.htm

Do I think it was a conspiricy involving others? Not at this point.

But I also think it was more than just 'flipping out'. He gave away his belongings before it happened, under the guise of being deployed overseas. There are internet posting with his name which are being investigated.

"There is also evidence that Hasan purchased a high-powered pistol three weeks ago as well as several high-capacity ammunition rounds that would allow him to continue firing without reloading."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-investigation

This was pre-meditated, like any other attack.

Not judge? You bet I"m judging.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Not judge? You bet I"m judging.

It is of course your privilege to do so. Personally, I shall keep an open mind.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

No, Harry. The man jumped on a table and yelled "Allahu Akbar" before proceeding to massacre his fellow servicemen.

Actually, this is a bit of misreporting. He actually yelled "Admiral Ackbar"-- giving everyone warning that it was a trap.

IMHO, this mass shooting seems to be pretty much like most other mass shootings in the US-- lone gunman who is stressed out about his life, feels that he was alienated and mistreated by his cow orkers, decides that he wants to die and take some of the people that he blames for his problems with him, either as revenge or to "tell the world" about his perceived persecution. That he essentially "prayed" before he started shooting isn't necessary relevant-- most mass shooters in the US have been Christians or non-religious, and the Christian ones probably have done a bit of praying of their own before starting.

[Elfwreck]

Oh, wow. Skip MR on the weekend to read LiveJournal and see what I miss out on.

I am anti-war, anti-military and occasionally anti-soldier, and I LOVE the idea of sending ebooks to soldiers. Especially Smashwords ebooks by little-known authors.

More diversity, more perspectives, more education, more free exchange of information are the only ways we're going to get past the notion that the country with the most guns should be setting the rules for everyone.

[eGeezer]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Oh, wow. Skip MR on the weekend to read LiveJournal and see what I miss out on.

I am anti-war, anti-military and occasionally anti-soldier, and I LOVE the idea of sending ebooks to soldiers. Especially Smashwords ebooks by little-known authors.

More diversity, more perspectives, more education, more free exchange of information are the only ways we're going to get past the notion that the country with the most guns should be setting the rules for everyone.

Whether a soldier in the midst of a battle, or a kid away at summer camp, a care package from home is a little touch of "We care, and we will be here when you get home."

Why they are fighting is a separate issue from their being away from the familiar where, ultimately, they would still rather be -- no matter what their personal motivation for being "there".

Well said, Elf.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by bjrnfrdnnd

Well,
I do think that actually what the guy did is far off from a muslim terrorist attack. And I do think that there are many muslim terrorist attacks. Just to show you that I will agree on _some_ of the things that you call muslim terrorist attacks (take 9/11), but not on others. It therefore doesn't mean that we have fundamentally different opinions. We do meet somewhere.

he has certainly done more to harm the Muslim presence in the military than any other single action in the history of the United States.

Originally Posted by HarryT

desertgrandma,

Until the man comes out of his coma and is able to be interrogated, any speculation as to his motives can be nothing more than speculation:

while he may not be part of an organized terrorist group, his heart and sole praising Allah as he shot certainly left no room for speculation as to what his intentions were and where his loyalties lay

Originally Posted by Verencat

I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and I got to say I'm fairly disappointed. Steve Jordan is informing us that he has found a nice way to bring confort to people he cares about. Good for him. Now, shouldn't we be inspired by him to find other ways to help and bring comfort to people we care about? Wouldn't it be the nice and fair thing to do right here, right now?

There is so little we can actually do to influence the situations and issues that have been discussed here, and there is so much good we can do for other people. We should never forget it, even if we feel the need to debate

I had meant to respond to Steve that I thought it was a superb idea, but by the time I was ready to respond, my good intentions had been smeared by some soldier hating and baiting

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Actually, this is a bit of misreporting. He actually yelled "Admiral Ackbar"-- giving everyone warning that it was a trap.

IMHO, this mass shooting seems to be pretty much like most other mass shootings in the US-- lone gunman who is stressed out about his life, feels that he was alienated and mistreated by his cow orkers, decides that he wants to die and take some of the people that he blames for his problems with him, either as revenge or to "tell the world" about his perceived persecution. That he essentially "prayed" before he started shooting isn't necessary relevant-- most mass shooters in the US have been Christians or non-religious, and the Christian ones probably have done a bit of praying of their own before starting.

are you trying to be funny with the "Admiral Ackbar" bit? if so, it is going over like a lead balloon.

no, this shooting does not seem like most of the other mass shootings. he wasn't mistreated or alienated by his coworkers. he was actually treated pretty damn well to be a 39 year old Major given that he was identified as "under performing". as desert grandma pointed out earlier, discharging him from the military in this day and age would smack of religious persecution, and as a Muslim?!!??? wow! not a good scene!

and this was, make no doubt about it, a religiously inspired attack. the last mass murderer we have had that was evenly remotely religiously motivated was McVeigh. short of shouting PRAISE JESUS AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!!, I don't know how much more clear his motivations could have been.

Originally Posted by eGeezer

Whether a soldier in the midst of a battle, or a kid away at summer camp, a care package from home is a little touch of "We care, and we will be here when you get home."

Why they are fighting is a separate issue from their being away from the familiar where, ultimately, they would still rather be -- no matter what their personal motivation for being "there".

Well said, Elf.

at the beginning of this conflict I organized an "adopt-a-soldier" program at a Pagan (you know those folks who tend to be very anti-war and anti military?) website. different people adopted a soldier from my niece's Stryker Brigade. they sent all matter of goodies; creature comforts, goodies, books, music, anything they wanted to send, just nothing negative. this was a bunch of people who absolutely detest anything remotely resembling conflict yet they were delighted to step forward and support individual human beings that they cared about.

[geneven]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

OH my goodness. what a bunch of BS.

The act was what it was......a terrorist attack on our soil by a muslim. By a muslim that betrayed his country for his faith.

Why is no one addressing THIS?

No, we're going to wring our hands, and pitifully cry "'why? Lets find out why this person did this then we can prevent future happenings."

Lots of people betray their country for their faith. If you follow the newspapers, you will see that it's not all that unusual for people to sell or give important secrets to Israel, for example. I have a feeling you weren't posting angry messages about those newspaper stories. Were you?

This particular terrorist is unusual. Judging from the stories I read, he was not an a..hole in his everyday life. This crime may have been a true crime of conscience. In a way it's scarier, because it points out that a person can calmly (and wrongly) do terrible things with the feeling that he is doing his duty to God. To me, it is not so important that he was a Muslim; I think that the issue is actually bigger than that. Maybe there is no solution.

I myself could say that he was basically a believer in God; how would you feel about that? Or maybe he's a Republican? Just because a person can be identified with something you are opposed to does not make that the ultimate explanation of his behavior.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

no, this shooting does not seem like most of the other mass shootings. he wasn't mistreated or alienated by his coworkers.

Pretty much every article I read on him or see on TV about him talks about his complaints about being harassed by other soldiers for his being a Muslim. So either you haven't actually read very much about this, or you are being disingenuous.

http://news.google.com/news/search?a...Hasan+harassed

which would surprise me in no way whatsoever, given:

http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/h...talism-miltary

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...enAGMSPeoCsImQ

and this was, make no doubt about it, a religiously inspired attack. the last mass murderer we have had that was evenly remotely religiously motivated was McVeigh. short of shouting PRAISE JESUS AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!!, I don't know how much more clear his motivations could have been.

Here's where I'm coming from-- I'm an unapologetic atheist. I think Christians AND Muslims are deluded by superstitions. But at least I know something about the conventions of both cultures. In Muslim culture, saying Allah Ackbar (or however you wish to spelling) is a common, normal phrase-- well, just read the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takbir

much like Muslims use some parenthetical exclaim of praise after the name of any deeply important religious figure. That is as automatic an exclamation in Islam as is saying "god bless you" after someone sneezes in some western countries. Christianity doesn't have a near-reflexive phrase like that (except for maybe people who say "god willing" after just about every statement) so you don't see Christian shooters using it. There is nothing in his using a very common phrase used a hundred million times a day by Muslims around the world (and that isn't hyperbole) that automagically makes it a cut-and-dry "religiously motivated" "terrorist" attack. I still don't see much difference between Hasan and the office shooter in Florida the next day (other than Hasan being much more successful.) That each one had different personal grievances that they were trying to get revenge for is a difference in degree, not type.

It may turn out that he did, indeed, intend a "terrorist" attack-- but there is no proof of that yet-- you are drawing absolute conclusions that are far from justified or warranted by the scant information available.

Here's a quote from a shooter from a few months ago. Are you going to say that he was religiously motivated?

"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell," ... "I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them."-- George Sodini

http://i.abcnews.com/US/story?id=8255530&page=1

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by geneven

Lots of people betray their country for their faith. If you follow the newspapers, you will see that it's not all that unusual for people to sell or give important secrets to Israel, for example. I have a feeling you weren't posting angry messages about those newspaper stories. Were you? No, i didn't. I also can't remember the last time a Jewish person flew planes into buildings, or massacred their fellow soldiers. DUH!

This particular terrorist is unusual. Judging from the stories I read, he was not an a..hole in his everyday life. This crime may have been a true crime of conscience. Conscience of what? Mowing down innocent people is an act of conscience? Lovely way to look at things.In a way it's scarier, because it points out that a person can calmly (and wrongly) do terrible things with the feeling that he is doing his duty to God. To me, it is not so important that he was a Muslim; Thats the entire point here. Way to close your eyes to whats going on around you. I think that the issue is actually bigger than that. Maybe there is no solution.

I myself could say that he was basically a believer in God; how would you feel about that? Or maybe he's a Republican? Just because a person can be identified with something you are opposed to does not make that the ultimate explanation of his behavior.

You were expecting maybe warnings? Terrorists are known for staying under the radar until they strike.

Not important he was a muslim? Thats the whole point here.

Basically a believer in God? What kind of God that deserves to even be acknowledged encourages this crap? Oh, wait.........Allah!

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Pretty much every article I read on him or see on TV about him talks about his complaints about being harassed by other soldiers for his being a Muslim. So either you haven't actually read very much about this, or you are being disingenuous.

http://news.google.com/news/search?a...Hasan+harassed

which would surprise me in no way whatsoever, given:

http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/h...talism-miltary

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...enAGMSPeoCsImQ



Here's where I'm coming from-- I'm an unapologetic atheist. I think Christians AND Muslims are deluded by superstitions. But at least I know something about the conventions of both cultures. In Muslim culture, saying Allah Ackbar (or however you wish to spelling) is a common, normal phrase-- well, just read the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takbir

much like Muslims use some parenthetical exclaim of praise after the name of any deeply important religious figure. That is as automatic an exclamation in Islam as is saying "god bless you" after someone sneezes in some western countries. Christianity doesn't have a near-reflexive phrase like that (except for maybe people who say "god willing" after just about every statement) so you don't see Christian shooters using it. There is nothing in his using a very common phrase used a hundred million times a day by Muslims around the world (and that isn't hyperbole) that automagically makes it a cut-and-dry "religiously motivated" "terrorist" attack. I still don't see much difference between Hasan and the office shooter in Florida the next day (other than Hasan being much more successful.) That each one had different personal grievances that they were trying to get revenge for is a difference in degree, not type.

It may turn out that he did, indeed, intend a "terrorist" attack-- but there is no proof of that yet-- you are drawing absolute conclusions that are far from justified or warranted by the scant information available.

Here's a quote from a shooter from a few months ago. Are you going to say that he was religiously motivated?

"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell," ... "I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them."-- George Sodini

http://i.abcnews.com/US/story?id=8255530&page=1

I'm not being disingenious at all. everything I have read has indicated that while he did not fit in, he was NOT being mistreated. those are two extremely different issues.

your first link was to a page of google links, I am not going to read them all. however, the very first link was from the Christian Science Monitor, and here is a quote from that article;

***"Maj. Aisha Bakkar says that her fellow Marine officers and enlisted Marines have never had a problem with her religious background. On the contrary, she believes that people are receptive to her faith and that the events of 9/11 actually have enlightened a lot of people about Islam. "

you say;

"Here's where I'm coming from-- I'm an unapologetic atheist. I think Christians AND Muslims are deluded by superstitions. But at least I know something about the conventions of both cultures. In Muslim culture, saying Allah Ackbar (or however you wish to spelling) is a common, normal phrase-- well, just read the Wikipedia article:"

what the hell does that have to do with your quip about him yelling "Admiral ...." (whatever you wrote). I know a GREAT deal about both Christian and Muslim mythologies. right now it seems you are just typing to see your words in print.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by eGeezer

... I believe there is another quote useful to this widely-divergent thread: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto death your right to say it."

I know it was Voltaire. Don't know if I got it perfectly correct.

Originally Posted by HarryT

I stand by what Voltaire (arguably) said, gollu:

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Regardless of whether or not I agree with what another person's views may be, I will always, always defend their right to say it without fear of attack, imprisonment, or other form of retribution. That, to me, is one of the true tests of democracy.

This quotation reflects a sentiment with which I agree, but, for the record, Voltaire never said it. The line was penned by Beatrice Hall in her 1907 biography of the great man, Friends of Voltaire. She later said that she was attempting to encapsulate Voltaire's attitude, but never meant to imply that those were his actual words.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Beatrice_Hall

[bjrnfrdnnd]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

he has certainly done more to harm the Muslim presence in the military than any other single action in the history of the United States.

Agreed. But this doesn't make it a died-in-the-wool terrorist attack. I tend to agree with ardeegee on the circumstances, making it really a much more complex issue.
This was a guy who felt harassed, and did have conscience issues. I doubt he would have done this act if he had not been in the army. Consider that he seemed to have joined the army for thankfulness towards the United States (as I have read somewhere). His conscience must have weighed on him really heavily if he chose to do this horrible act, in spite of his thankfulness.
I believe he went crazy because of these two extreme feelings - religion and dedication to the US, both pulling in opposite directions. Add his feelings of being mobbed due to his religion, and the fact (is it a fact? I just read it in this thread) that he was underperforming, and you do get a complex mixture that certainly sets him apart from other religiously motivated terrorist attacks.

[kindlekitten]

quotes from the Stars and Stripes newspaper;

"Classmates participating in a 2007-2008 master's program at a military college complained repeatedly to superiors about what they considered Hasan's anti-American views. Dr. Val Finnell said Hasan gave a presentation at the Uniformed Services University that justified suicide bombing and even told classmates that Islamic law trumped the U.S. Constitution."

"Some said he was an outspoken Muslim, prone to emotional outbursts, angry about the U.S. war in Iraq and dreading an impending deployment to Afghanistan.

And a few noted that while Hasan never exhibited a violent side, they weren’t particularly surprised to learn he allegedly was at the center of the worst mass murder ever committed on an American military base."

Dr. Val Finnell, a classmate of Hasan’s last year at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Maryland, called Hasan “a vociferous opponent to U.S. policy in Iraq” and said he frequently spoke about his faith, sometimes in inappropriate venues.

“We had an environmental health class assignment; most of us gave presentations on things like molds in homes and allergens,” Finnell said. “Hasan’s topic was, ‘The U.S. war in Iraq: A war against Islam.’ I have no idea why the faculty even allowed him to make such a presentation.”


Following the shootings, Hasan’s family told The Washington Post that he had endured name-calling and harassment about his Muslim faith during his 12-year Army career, and was upset about an imminent deployment to Afghanistan.

But Finnell said Hasan was usually the instigator of arguments, speaking openly about the injustices of U.S. military missions overseas and sulking when others challenged his remarks.

“He made himself a lightning rod,” Finnell said.

Another Army officer who worked with Hasan at Walter Reed Army Medical Center said Hasan was “generally polite” with staff but problematic with his patients. On several occasions, he said, Hasan condemned his patients struggling with drug or alcohol addiction for “unholy” behavior, and openly tried to convert others to Islam.

“When I heard that he was behind the shootings, frankly it didn’t seem like much of a stretch,” said the soldier, who asked to remain anonymous because Army commanders instructed him not to speak about Hasan.

Fort Hood officials said Hasan used a pair of handguns in the attack, which took place at the Texas base’s Soldier Family Readiness Center. Most of the injured were soldiers at the facility for pre- and post-deployment medical checkups.

Hasan served six years at Walter Reed before his Texas assignment. As a clinical psychiatrist, he worked with both wounded troops returning from war and their families. He also served as a fellow for disaster and preventive psychiatry at the military’s Center for Traumatic Stress, official records show.

Hasan has never been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, but Army officials confirmed he was due to be sent to Afghanistan later this year.

Dr. Asif Qadri, head of the medical clinic at the Muslim Community Center in Silver Spring, Md., said Hasan frequently attended prayer services there. He spoke with pride about being a Muslim serving in the Army, Qadri said, and was known as a “jovial” and “well balanced” person who never talked about politics.

On Friday for about 45 minutes, the FBI interviewed the imam of the local Killeen, Texas, mosque that Hasan attended. Seyed Amed Ali doesn't speak much English, but he said the president of the Islamic Community Center of Greater Killeen translated for the FBI.

Ali said Hasan prayed every morning, normally wearing his uniform. Hasan told the imam he planned to visit his parents in Virginia for two weeks prior to deploying to Afghanistan for a six-month tour. Records show, however, that Hasan's parents are deceased.

Just last week, Hasan expressed views that Muslims shouldn't serve in the military and fight other Muslims, according to Duane Reasoner Jr., a recent Muslim convert who had been having dinner regularly with Hasan.

Hasan had taken 18-year-old Reasoner under his wing, mentoring him in his new faith. After evening prayers he would often buy a fish dinner for Reasoner and sometimes the iman at the Golden Corral, a chain buffet restaurant. Besides mentioning that he prayed for a wife, the conversation almost never strayed from religion, Reasoner said, describing Hasan as warm and caring.

Manager Vera Brooks said Hasan, dressed in typical civilian clothes, was a regular there, eating by himself almost every weekend.

The night before the shootings, Hasan and Reasoner went as usual to the Golden Corral. Reasoner said Hasan acted as he always did. No red flags.

"Nothing was out of the ordinary," he said.

Neighbors in Hasan’s former apartment complex in Silver Spring said they had only superficial relationships with him. Malcolm Frazier said he had brief conversations with Hasan in the apartment hallway, and that Hasan usually wore traditional Muslim dress in his civilian time.

But he described the Army major as a quiet man who was always alone.

“I didn’t even know his name,” until his face showed up on the news Thursday night, Frazier said.

Army officials could not confirm eyewitness reports that Hasan shouted “Allahu Akbar!” — Arabic for “God is Great” — during the attack, and FBI officials would not confirm reports that Hasan had already been under surveillance by authorities for a questionable Web posting in May.

That posting, on the Web site scribd.com, was written by someone using the name “NidalHasan” who compared Muslim suicide bombers to U.S. soldiers who’ve thrown themselves onto grenades to save their fellow soldiers.

The large number of victims and witnesses in the attack — about 300 soldiers and 100 civilians were interviewed on Thursday alone — led to confusion and chaos in the aftermath of the tragedy.

The base was locked down almost immediately following the attack, trapping students in schools and parents outside Fort Hood’s main gate. At one point, investigators believed as many as three other shooters may have been involved, and later base officials had to correct a report that Hasan had been killed in the attack. On Friday, they emphasized that Hasan is believed to be the only shooter involved.

At Fort Hood on Friday, soldiers who had already suffered psychological trauma fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan suddenly found themselves struggling to cope with a fresh disaster.

Sgt. Howard Appleby, a 31-year-old combat engineer suffering from PTSD as a result of two deployments to Iraq, was at the base hospital Thursday when the victims of the shooting started pouring in.

For 45 minutes, Appleby helped pull the wounded from ambulances and private cars, crying the whole time.

“Now I don’t know who to trust because the guy who did this was a doc,” Appleby said.

Stars and Stripes reporters Kevin Baron, Jeff Schogol and Megan McCloskey contributed to this report.