Ayn Rand

[Gideon]

Nationalism gives me the heebee jeebies. I think it's sad the Dixie Chicks got such a hard come back for all that... personally, I was impressed they said it. Doesn't make me want to listen to their music anymore but.... eh. But given they are country music stars this was a big mistake to say out loud. I'm not sure there is any particular virtue at all in patriotism.. or at least no more virtue than rooting for your state football team.

If there is a valuable patriotism, it's being critical of your government and holding it accountable to the virtues it espouses. Whether Iraq and Bush is all that is up for debate, of course, but if they felt it was in violation than I am proud they stood up and said it. Patriotism has to be more than "I happened to be born in this part of the world" to be valuable. If it is virtues such as freedom of speech, religion, etc. that make this country great than it is vital that we USE these freedoms and be able to use them against the state.

The founding fathers didn't allow freedom of speech so that we would be free to be critical of our neighbors, it was to be able to be critical of the state. Standing up and saying "The king sucks" was getting their buddies hung. We always should, and absolutely should when we need to, say our politicians and leaders suck when they suck. And yes, that's up to each individual and each individual has the right to not agree with it.

It's kind of like that nonsense about liberals not loving their country, they love their country they just love it too much to let it stay the way it is sometimes.

As to the Native Americans... it wasn't a COMPLETED genocide, but it was sure as hell an attempt. Just because Hitler didn't manage to wipe out the Jews doesn't mean it wasn't a horrible, godawful thing and what we normally call 'genocide.' The American government was more successful than Hitler, but still didn't quite finish the job. I don't think you get 'national guilt' for such things. It's no more mine or your fault what the government did 100 years ago than it is your average German's what Hitler did 70 years ago. It's a horrible passage of history and should be acknowledged as such... not sure what else you can do.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

And how did the Japanese respond? They joined the military in droves, and proved to be some of the most loyal Americans around.

As for the native population, really, "whole genocide"? That would mean there were none around. Interesting.

Ever heard of the Navajo Code talkers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker

Now, there has to be something about a country that inspires such loyalty.

I won't even try to respond to the link between American corporations and the Nazi concentration camps. I feel dirty just reading that.

IBM made the death-tally machines for the concentration camps.

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

Coca-cola made Fanta for the Nazi troops/populace because they couldn't rightly sell Coca-cola to the allied forces and the nazi's at the same time -- bad image.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200405240002

The history of corporatism and capitalism is built upon the corpses of the common man. Wars are profit-incentive-operations for big business, have been since year dot.


Your code-talkers after they 'served their country' returned to reservations plagued with alcoholic abuse, high suicide rates and domestic abuse, they never, not one of them, recieved their GI bill like other soldiers. - land of the free indeed (if you're white and middle-class of course).

Don't get me into an argument about patriotism, it's easy to debunk patriotism with a few simple facts. And don't get me started on WWII where I lost a good few of my family who served in the military, and they died a long time before any 'American' involvement in that war.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

We're all, as British or Americans on very shaky ground when it comes to the examples you're citing. We British (as a a nation state) instituted the concentration camp and were responsible for mass slaughters across several continents during our Empire. The Americans, famously, interred their Japanese-American population during WWII and lest we forget the whole genocide of the Native populace. And if we go even further we'll see that the American Nation, especially its corporations were inexorably linked with the death camps of the Nazi's (the kind of corporatism and capitalism that prompted the Cocal Cola company to invent Fanta because they couldn't make a profit from Cola in Nazi Germany).

Mcarthyism did not only 'deprive people of an income', it forced many into exile to avoid imprisonment, most famously being Ring Lardner Jr, the Screenwriter. There were plenty of imprisonments during the HUAC, only not of the highly public figures. A Witch hunt isn't really a Witch hunt if when you find the Witch you don't do anything with her now, is it?

Which I pointed out in my quote, quite openly and explicitly. We have done bad things to our own people.

Once again, was the HUAC worse that the above mentioned items?

Once again, where are McCarthy's prisons. I can point to the "Tiger Cages" of South Vietnam after the North Vietnamese took over. They are still uncovering mass graves in Siberia from Stalin's Gulags. All of Cambodia was turn into one great re-education camp. These are things I can point to. Show me McCarthy's prisons.

All you have shown me is jailing for Contempt of Congress, going to standard prisons. Why Contempt of Congress? For refusing to testify or lying under oath. Not for taking the 5th, refusing to testify. Guess what, if you are subpoenaed, either by a court or Congress, and you refuse to testify, you go to jail - today. No matter what you are asked to testify on. That's been around since the late 1790's in the US.

You may think certain questions shouldn't be asked. Change the Constitution. I might back you.

As to exile, I guarantee you most of the people in re-education camps would have taken exile in a heartbeat....

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Don't get me into an argument about patriotism, it's easy to debunk patriotism with a few simple facts. And don't get me started on WWII where I lost a good few of my family who served in the military, and they died a long time before any 'American' involvement in that war.

It would depend on your definition of "patriotism".

How does when we got into the war make any difference at all in the deaths involved? Very few families here escaped losing at least one family member.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

It would depend on your definition of "patriotism".

How does when we got into the war make any difference at all in the deaths involved? Very few families here escaped losing at least one family member.

You'd be surprised how deep that wound goes culturally. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't so deep that its subconscious on the part of us Brits. You've got to realise that as a nation we were dying and being attacked for a good few years before your country even deemed it worthy to help us out (and then it was all a lot of debt and....).

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

You'd be surprised how deep that wound goes culturally. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't so deep that its subconscious on the part of us Brits. You've got to realise that as a nation we were dying and being attacked for a good few years before your country even deemed it worthy to help us out (and then it was all a lot of debt and....).

And Hang the Kaizer? When the US suggested things to create a lasting peace after WW I, we were laughed at. Who dumped all the war reparations on Germany? All to save political hides in Britain and France... So was it not suprising that the US took the attitude that when it blew up again, it was your problem?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

And Hang the Kaizer? When the US suggested things to create a lasting peace after WW I, we were laughed at. Who dumped all the war reparations on Germany? All to save political hides in Britain and France... So was it not suprising that the US took the attitude that when it blew up again, it was your problem?

Wait, how did we get onto the Yanks being late for two World Wars? Was that me?

So was it not suprising that the US took the attitude that when it blew up again, it was your problem?

Not surprising no, because Britain experienced the same in WWI when US forces arrived scant months before the ceasefire. Brits were used to it the second time around, although it still pissed us off

[desertgrandma]

[QUOTE=Moejoe;508584

Your code-talkers after they 'served their country' returned to reservations plagued with alcoholic abuse, high suicide rates and domestic abuse, they never, not one of them, recieved their GI bill like other soldiers. - land of the free indeed (if you're white and middle-class of course).

[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I've found two sites that speak of code talkers that DID use the GI bill of rights. Here is one quote, with the link to the entire article following.

After the war, Billison decided to take advantage of his benefits with the GI Bill. Oklahoma colleges and universities were known to be Indian-friendly, so Billison came to Oklahoma. He first attended East Central in Ada, receiving a bachelor’s degree. He worked at a hotel in Wewoka for a little spending cash. Then in 1954, he attended the University of Oklahoma, where he garnered his master’s degree. He earned his doctorate in education from the University of Arizona. With no one knowing his true wartime contribution, Billison went to work as a school principal and later was elected to the Navajo Tribal Council. Finally, in 1968, the Marines declassified the code.
http://www.oufoundation.org/sm/summe...tory.asp?ID=58

And then there is"
Some of the returning Code Talkers stayed in their home communities and farmed, ranched, fished, and did whatever kinds of work they could find. Others had to move to larger urban areas where jobs were more plentiful. Many veterans took advantage of the Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944 (better known as the G.I. Bill) to go to college or get vocational training.
http://www.nmai.si.edu/education/cod.../chapter6.html

Many native Americans persevered and made great contributions to their peoples.

I guess its like any thing else. You can find excuses for your lot in life, or you can go out and do something about it.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Gideon

... As to the Native Americans... it wasn't a COMPLETED genocide, but it was sure as hell an attempt. ... The American government was more successful than Hitler, but still didn't quite finish the job. I don't think you get 'national guilt' for such things. It's no more mine or your fault what the government did 100 years ago than it is your average German's what Hitler did 70 years ago. It's a horrible passage of history and should be acknowledged as such... not sure what else you can do.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, let's not oversimplify. The American continent in the 16th and 17th centuries was hardly an orderly state, where "the American government" somehow decided to perpetrate "a genocide."

There were French interests, and Dutch, and Spanish.... And then there were the native populations, who did in fact sometimes succeed at their genocidal attempts, completely exterminating other native tribes (look up the Iroquois, for instance, who exterminated most neutral indians during their drive to take control of the fur trade.)

As to nationalism (tribalism at a larger scale,) I regard only religion as a worst trait (primarily because it is an even stronger belief system, with a promise of "eternal" salvation for the truly faithful, and thus even more prone to great atrocities.)

Of course, one has to remember, that it is one thing to challenge the government when disagreeing with its policies, and quite another, to aid the enemy.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

For instance, the waving of a British Flag/Showing a British Flag outside your house has for a long time hinted at leanings toward the right wing and fascism. As with Religion, most British citizens are pretty much indifferent when it comes to patriotism. Its more of a shrug of the shoulders reaction, unless its the footie -- then you'll see some ridiculous patriotism from usually rational and intelligent people.

Okay, so its different where you are. Thats fine.

Here, it shows respect, if done properly. When we lived in Arkansas, we had a 20ft pole and my husband faithfully raised and lowered our flag each day. In inclement weather, it didn't go up.
He did it because he spent his time in the Military, and our generation was taught the American flag is worthy of respect and being flown.

[Gideon]

Yeah... 'greater.' Whatever. Religion doesn't have anything on secular systems such as Stalinist USSR, Mao's China or Hitler's Germany. People do terrible things, period. Sometimes it gets dressed up in religion, sometimes ideology, and sometimes tribe/government. But I know... we have to dismiss them for one reason or another so we can keep pretending that religion is the biggest boogeyman and it's not that people are just rat bastards and that when people get together they become even bigger rat bastards.

The 'other' gets created all the time. Good religion, good ideologies, and good politics try to reduce this sensibility. As long as we can see our enemies as 'other' it is a lot easier to dismiss them and kill them.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

...
Not surprising no, because Britain experienced the same in WWI when US forces arrived scant months before the ceasefire. Brits were used to it the second time around, although it still pissed us off

You mean, after your guy brought you "peace for our time," after selling Czechoslovakia out, and turning a blind eye to the newly created concentration camps in Germany, which by then had started collecting the gays, the Gypsies and the handicapped.

Yeah, those damned Americans, always being late....

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Okay, so its different where you are. Thats fine.

Here, it shows respect, if done properly. When we lived in Arkansas, we had a 20ft pole and my husband faithfully raised and lowered our flag each day. In inclement weather, it didn't go up.
He did it because he spent his time in the Military, and our generation was taught the American flag is worthy of respect and being flown.

Most of my family have served in the military, barring me of course, I wouldn't pick up a gun for the life of me. But all the British Flag (Union Jack) brings about in my mind is football hooligans, the National Front (a far-right, skinhead organization that were around in the 80's) and Royalists (yes I'm anti the royals and all they stand for). We have a very queasy relationship with the flag...apart from all that our flag might be changing soon from this:



to this:



So you see, I don't really give a rat's tinker for the flag of my country, or any supposed ideals it stands for (especially the Royalist parts).

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Most of my family have served in the military, barring me of course, I wouldn't pick up a gun for the life of me.

So.........its okay if others die for your country, and way of life.

You are satisfied to sit back and reap the benefits without worrying about sacrificing anything.

No problem. We have the same sorts here.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

So.........its okay if others die for your country, and way of life.

You are satisfied to sit back and reap the benefits without worrying about sacrificing anything.

Nobody died for 'a way of life' they died to defend the country from invasion. If you think the British soldiers in WWII joined up because of patriotism of lofty ideals, you're highly misinformed. In WWI and WWII they didn't have a choice, they were conscripted. Our standing army, even after 1939 was too small to defend the country, so conscription was used.

We don't have that now, but then again we don't really have any wars that are worth fighting now (unless you call that thing in the desert a war).

No problem. We have the same sorts here.

You mean "Conscientious Objectors"? Because if you were trying for a veiled insult, it really was rather weak.

EDIT: Oh, and by the by, I find it highly insulting that you would even assume that I sit back and enjoy my life on the deaths of those that came before me. That's not only insulting to me, its insulting to my relatives who died on the fields of Ipres and the Somme, who died fighting against the fascist Franco in Spain and on the beaches at Normandy. You dishonor all their memories by assuming that I come to my pacifism from anything other than respect for those who have died.

Here's something my grandfather used to tell me:

Bullets only ever did two things. Lined the pockets of rich men and the coffins of the poor.