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#91 | |
Wizard
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Karma: 507333
Join Date: May 2009
Device: none
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Changing the typeset/font size causes degradation of typographic quality in an entirely objective sense of the word. Given that most people do not know (nor consciously care) about typography, this is (as my lunatic rantings show) difficult to convince people of... but take any text, at any display size, at any font size... even with any font face... and a properly typeset version of it as opposed to a software reflowed one will always look better to the average person (in fact, probably to most people) in a double-blind test... because it is. This doesn't mean that you're supposed to like a PDF eBook that you cannot comfortably read because of font-size issues, or because of legitimate complaints like an unnecessarily large margin on an already small display. It means that if a publisher or eBook maker takes the time to create a quality PDF for your device at a font size that is acceptable to you, reading that will be a more pleasant reading experience than something (however seemingly imperceptibly) butchered by software. If you really truly *need* to arbitrarily go back and forth between different font sizes within a single book... then true enough, perhaps PDF is the wrong format for you. But be aware, PDF is the only format that can offer the same quality reading experience as a paper book generally does these days. That's a fact. So you can either reflow, or you can get eBooks that aren't visibly poorer quality than the dead-tree version your neighbour has that doesn't require a fragile $300+ computer to read. --- Alrighty... sleepy ahi is sleepy. Thanks for the great debate and discussion, all! - Ahi |
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#92 | |
Evangelist
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Karma: 451808
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California, USA
Device: my two eyes, KLiiK, Sony PRS-700
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#93 | |
Evangelist
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Karma: 451808
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California, USA
Device: my two eyes, KLiiK, Sony PRS-700
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#94 | |
Evangelist
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Karma: 451808
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California, USA
Device: my two eyes, KLiiK, Sony PRS-700
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Quote:
What I find interesting is how easily people associate PDF with A4 or US Letter size when in fact, most books if they are digitally in PDF format are NOT in A4 or US Letter size because...guess what...the actual books themselves are NOT using A4 or US Letter size paper! DUH! They're usually smaller in size. Even our Wiki on this website makes that erroneous remark over and over again. The remark being that most PDFs are made for A4 or US Letter size. Eh...no, not really. Even academic journals don't typically print on A4 or US Letter size. And furthermore, our Wiki here has the erroneous remark that PDFs don't reflow properly. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It often doesn't reflow properly not because of the digital format but because whoever authored it didn't work it properly. |
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#95 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Karma: 25133758
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)
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Quote:
There's been some acknowledgment that yes, PDFs could be a reasonably good ebook format... IF they were done correctly. If Acrobat's full array of options were used. If features like tags were activated. If color & design features were adapted to look good in ebook readers. But they're not. And there's no sign at all that publishers will start paying attention to these details... the people who most notice them and care, are already convinced that other ebook formats are better. (And they are. Because you can't remove the reflow ability from ePubs or Mobi books; you can't scramble the kerning and initial-letter positioning without deliberate effort.) And if publishers won't listen to avid ebook readers who say, "give us stuff w/o DRM so that it works for us; we'd be willing to pay for that" or "give us formats that work on our readers" or "give us the option of buying an ebook for a friend," why would they listen when those readers say, "give us PDFs with tags and good fonts for a mobile device and bookmarks and good metadata?" They're convinced that the ebook fanatics are the lunatic fringe, and they're going to ignore *everything* that comes out of places like Mobileread. They have a marketing department that tells them what the public really wants, and it's never "better metadata and linked TOCs!" Because "the public" doesn't know those things exist... they just know that they tried an ebook demo at a store, and they didn't like it. |
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#96 | |
Apeist
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Karma: 381090
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The sunny part of California
Device: Generic virtual reality story-experiential device
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If you think they will not output PDF correctly, when their staff is generally well-trained on how to do it, what makes you assume, that they will output EPUB correctly, with all the code tweaking it may need? As for publishers releasing "print-ready" PDFs, it just doesn't make any sense. You think they'll kick and scream to embed DRM into the file, but will want to saddle you with a huge PDF, which will tax the seller's servers, and will be great for producing high quality bootleg print-runs in India or China? But even if they did, Adobe Acrobat can optimize a PDF to a much smaller size with one click, and cheap third-party apps can shrink it further yet. Me thinks, Ahi is in fact very knowledgeable, and very sensibly makes some very good points. ![]() |
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#97 | |
Zealot
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Karma: 937
Join Date: Mar 2009
Device: Kindle Paperwhite (10th Gen)
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Generally, I don't necessarily embrace the notion that a particular typesetting that a publisher provides will satisfy all and I will argue that it won't. However, in the same way that I can view a magazine and it's visual appeal (e.g. Zinio formatted magazines) is the same way I want to view my reading material. If all one reads are novels, then epub is more than adequate. But if we want to evolve past novels, we need something better than epub and, today, that's pdf. I'm not blindly loyal to pdf but it's the best that we have today. If a new format comes out or a current format evolves into something that rivals the benefits of epub and pdf, I will be the first in line to support it. |
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#98 | |
Wizard
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Karma: 507333
Join Date: May 2009
Device: none
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[QUOTE=Elfwreck;466497]That's one of the key issues you're missing--who's going to create these "properly done" PDFs?
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The day (after) a publisher decides to take eBooks seriously, they will get competent members of their staff to generate the necessary PDFs after some cursory research that informs what display sizes and peculiarities they ought to take into account... instead of having whoever they presently punished with the added responsibility of creating eBooks that nobody at the publisher will ever quality check. Since publishers' primary activity is generate great quality PDFs, they will manage better than most of us will with making ePubs even... as soon as they feel its a market worth caring about. - Ahi |
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#99 | |
Wizard
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Karma: 507333
Join Date: May 2009
Device: none
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Good typesetting won't make everyone love a given piece--but do we agree that it (good typesetting) exists, and its presence or absence is (however imprecisely) quantifiable, and even testable, and its impact is primarily on readability or ease/pleasantness of reading (considerations that ought to be chief for a person who does a lot of reading)? Because to me these all feel pretty fundamental points... and I get the sense with some regularity, that others disbelieve at least some of them. - Ahi |
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#100 |
The Introvert
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Karma: 1000077497
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650 & 505 & 500
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#101 | |
frumious Bandersnatch
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Karma: 19500001
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
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There is a real "market" for PDF books, even if they are not in general a good format for dedicated ebook readers. |
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#102 | |
Guru
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Karma: 2003751
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ottawa, ON
Device: Kobo Glo HD
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You can't do that with PDF, while ePub reading software has just started to evolve. |
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#103 | |
Wizard
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Join Date: May 2009
Device: none
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https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...hlight=sun+tzu https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...hlight=sun+tzu The first document has been available for a year, the second for a year and a half. In contrast to these 700 or so downloads, my (non-eBook-reader-customized) PDF of Sun Tzu's "Art of War" was downloaded well over 3000 times since February. I'll leave interpretation of these numbers up to the reader. - Ahi |
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#104 |
The Introvert
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Karma: 1000077497
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Device: Sony Reader PRS-650 & 505 & 500
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Well.
Maybe people still read on the PCs/laptops/netbooks whatever. PDF is unreadable on 6"(8" with 3-4 fonts size changes etc. for comfort) ebook reader, thus do not represent a useable ebook format. I voted for epub because I hope it has a chance to be a good format in the future but as of now, my quite big ebook library consists mostly of HTML(sometimes LIT/RTF) books that can be converted into any(hopefully) format my current and future reader will support. |
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#105 | |
Wizard
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Karma: 507333
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
It is a mistake to extrapolate stop-gap measures and practices currently in place to make up for the extreme short-comings of the technology indefinitely into the future. Do you accept, by the way, that people whose living depends on making good looking and readable books are going to be better at that tasks than random eBook device enthusiasts or software automation? Or does our disagreement start on this very fundamental point? |
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