Seriously thoughtful US/Europe Cultural Divide -- Musings

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by wodin

I AM a federal bureaucrat, and I appreciate your confidence; but believe me, you would very much rather have someone who has to compete for a profit doing it than someone with a monopoly like governments have.

I'd like to trust you, but not after years and years of corporations abusing people solely for profit. I'll take a Civil Servant doing a competent job, albeit slowly, any day of the week. Profit is not a motivation I have any affinity with, nor truly understand.

[YGG-]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'd like to trust you, but not after years and years of corporations abusing people solely for profit. I'll take a Civil Servant doing a competent job, albeit slowly, any day of the week. Profit is not a motivation I have any affinity with, nor truly understand.

The question is motivation+values (see Max Weber) : profit is Ok as long as (an no more than) you have an ethical drive to keep it in control; the '80s motto "greed is good" (bonfire of vanities etc.) led us directly where we are today (APR 2009, remember ) ...

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Interesting approach, I suppose, but I've never owned stocks or made any kind of investment for profit in my life. Maybe it's that whole 'pessimism' again coming through? I don't know, but I can't say I've ever thought of this current crisis as anything but a terrible event.

Well, if you are young, you'd be surprised what a small fraction of you income can make you independent of government funding come retirement. If you make relatively conservative investment choices and start at age 30, you can retire with no loss of income by investing only 7% of gross each year! And this only assumes investments that run slightly behind market averages over your career. (And isn't it fascinating that Uncle Sam is using 15% of my gross income to do waaaay worse than that!)

You may wish to consider investing for your retirement -- it makes worries about the bozos in Washington/London/Paris/Wherever much less urgent-seeming. And given the recent sell-of in the world's markets, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better time to start.

Since I rate the likelihood of my collecting any meaningful amount of money from Social Security somewhere around the likelihood of a flying saucer landing on the Whitehouse lawn, investing for my retirement sure looks like a prudent choice to me! Your mileage may vary, of course.

This current crisis is a terrible event. But it's not yet anywhere near the magnitude of the Great Depression. We have yet to see just how bad it will get (or did get, depending).

Xenophon

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by YGG-

The question is motivation+values (see Max Weber) : profit is Ok if you have an ethical drive to keep it in control; the '80s motto "greed is good" (bonfire of vanities etc.) led us directly where we are today (APR 2009, remember ) ...

Exactly I'm not against profit, just profit as a sole motivation.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Profit is not a motivation I have any affinity with, nor truly understand.

There, my friend lies the divide between capitalism and socialism.

Personally, I espouse capitalism!

[YGG-]

Originally Posted by wodin

There, my friend lies the divide between capitalism and socialism.

Of course not; any economic system strives to produce some kind of "profit". Disagreements generally arise as to how you share it

[wodin]

Originally Posted by YGG-

Of course not; any economic system strives to produce some kind of "profit". Disagreements generally arise as to how you share it

I think I speak for the majority when I say I'm only interested in profit for me!

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by wodin

I think I speak for the majority when I say I'm only interested in profit for me!

Seriously? You're not joking?

[tirsales]

Communism is about "production systems are owned by all people" - whatever US politicians or newspapers are always saying (I'm sorry for the general rumble - but I really dislike all those "THIS IS COMMUNISM" cries...)
Its not about profit, its about "acceptable behavior" (e.g. what are you allowed to do for profit, what is "the value" of ethics, etc). I do not want to judge anybody here or do state that Americans are not valuing ethics (or Europeans as far as it goes) - I simply want to state a potential point of disagreement apart from "Communism vs Capitalism" (and there are many, many systems in between...)

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Needless to say, the cost-shifting results I almost cited above (would have cited if I was less lazy) tell us that the costs not covered in the controlled market get shifted to the uncontrolled part of the market, while being non-linearly inflated on the way. Various studies have suggested that most (although not all) of the "higher cost of health-care" in the US is due to this cost-shifting problem. Having Uncle Sam pay full freight would remove that part of the problem. But it would require Uncle Sam (which is to say the Congress, and so in the end the voters) to admit to the true cost of the health-care provided at taxpayer expense. And that, in turn, would affect the budget, and...

It's a mess.

Funny, but we talked about this a lot over the weekend with my family.

One aspect that is ignored here is the the "full freight" price is also inflated. The people who are making money hand-over-fist are the insurance companies, medical supply companies and drug companies. All of those players are gaming the system to net the most profit.

Talking with my brother-in-law, who has worked in various places in the medical industry, most health providers are fine with Medicare and Medicade since they pay semi-reasonable prices and pay on time. I've seen many complaints about dealing with different insurance companies and that it seems like every company does it differently and getting their money in a timely fashion is often a complex process. Both my father and my brother-in-law think that the future of heath care coverage in this country is going to be through a single source provider, whether it is government run or not. My brother-in-law has already seen signs of it, with the local health care conglomerate near him buying out local practices and surgery centers.

[YGG-]

Originally Posted by wodin

I think I speak for the majority when I say I'm only interested in profit for me!

Probably not : you very likely include there a) your spouse if any b) your kids c) some possible extended family d) maybe other people;
Profit is only possible in a regulated social system : regulations, laws, & institutions to enforce them... you're interested not only in your profit but also in the conditions that will allow you to get your profit... among those conditions you find the fact that other people will get their profit... so you're interested in their profit & fair rules for sharing this profit etc etc etc

[DixieGal]

You kids listen to Xenophon, because he is telling you a true thing. Investing a small amount now and regularly every week or month is the smartest thing you can ever do.

Invest where it doesn't hurt you, and never invest more than you can afford to lose. If you get a raise at work, don't even think about it. Take that amount and put it into your safest possible retirement fund. Skip the new car every other year and instead pay an equivalent amount of a car payment into a mutual fund each month.

My mother was a financial whiz. She studied at the knee of my grandmother (her mother-in-law), who brought her family cotton farm out of the Great Depression much wealthier than when they went started. They both drilled a very important rule into my head: Live below your means.

That means perhaps buying a smaller or older house than the rest of your friends, and paying cash or paying it off quickly. It means thinking twice before throwing money away on impulse purchases. Don't buy it just because you can afford the minimum monthly payments. And feel glad when those around you are worried about finances but you only have to worry about what to do with all that extra cash. That's a good problem to have!

All of you kids just starting out need to build a habit of saving and investing right from the start. Just $5 or $10 in a kitchen canister will add up in a hurry. The popular saying is to pay into your savings as though it was a bill to be paid.

Lots (most) people think that talking about money is taboo. There is nothing wrong or dirty in thinking about money and how to get more of it. I highly recommend reading the "Rich Dad/Poor Dad" series of books. It will free you to think and talk openly about how to use money. I say "use" because never forget: Money is a tool.

And now the book paragraph brings us back On Topic. Carry on.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Seriously? You're not joking?

No, I'm not. That was exactly my reaction when you said

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Profit is not a motivation I have any affinity with, nor truly understand.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Just $5 or $10 in a kitchen canister will add up in a hurry. The popular saying is to pay into your savings as though it was a bill to be paid.

In short, just read _The Richest Man in Babylon_ and follow the simple 10 steps (I think it is) to riches.

BOb

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

In short, just read _The Richest Man in Babylon_ and follow the simple 10 steps (I think it is) to riches.

BOb

Gimme the jist of it, please.