Hugo 2020 Award Winners

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by hildea

You know, if you quote the whole of Stross' blurb, it sounds very different. "Lesbians in space" makes it sound as if the only notable thing about the characters is their sexual orientation. But the full blurb is:

“Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!” ―Charles Stross

which, to me, seems pretty interesting.

I think we should have a novel based on Pigs in Space.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think we should have a novel based on Pigs in Space.

If you explore fan fiction, I'm guessing there's at least one out there.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by issybird

Not that it’s easy to forget, given how promotions have taken over the home page to the exclusion of most of the useful information for the user.

Do people still go to home pages?

[issybird]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

Do people still go to home pages?

Well, in GR’s case, it’s as good a place as any to go and log my books. And, back in the day, it’s where I’d get the very useful feed of what my friends were reading. It’s still there, but much less space is devoted to it, pretty much just the chinks between the promotional matter. Instead, I get to see: “Based on your reading preferences you might like” and then the titles of promoted books that have nothing at all in common with anything I’ve ever read, much less enjoyed.

As they say, you get what you pay for. And despite all the blandishments, my GR account is not connected to my Amazon account.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

That's not quite a fair summary.

The sad puppies gamed the nominations, most successfully in 2015, and the Hugo voters reacted by voting for No Award in the categories they gamed.

To prevent small (ca 20%) numbers of nominators controlling the selections, the rules were changed for the 2017 Hugos

I think it's a pretty fair summary. They game the system to get invalid results, we modify the rules to make sure only deserving books win. The only real difference is if you like the results or not. The sad puppies basically brought the clique issue to a head. It's not a shock that the only two years that Baen got a book in the finalist was when the sad puppies were active.

Looking at the best novel category -
2020 - Tor placed 4 out of 6, including the winner, Orbit 1
2019 - tor 1 out of 6 including the winner
2018 - tor 1 orbit 4
2017 - tor 3 orbit 1 (out of 6)
2016 - orbit 2 out of 5
2015 - tor 3 orbit 2 (out of 5)
2014 - tor 1 orbit 3 (out of 5) Still trying to figure out how the Wheel of Time could be a finalist for best novel in 2014. I'm sure the fact that it was published by Tor had nothing to do with it
2013 - tor 1 orbit 2 (out of 5)
2012 - tor 1 orbit 2 (out of 5)

Not sure what happened to Orbit in 2019, maybe they had a brief falling out.

I could keep on, but I think I've made my point. Fairly obviously Tor and Orbit have dominated the voting over the past decade at least.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

If you explore fan fiction, I'm guessing there's at least one out there.

I'm willing to wager you don't even need to go to fan fic.

[hildea]

pwalker8, I'm curious: Exactly what do you think Tor is doing? And how are they doing it?

Are they paying for lots of Worldcon memberships, under the condition that the recipients nominate and vote for Tor books? And have they managed to do this secretly, for years, without a single bribed voter spilling the beans about what's going on?

(And if that's what you're thinking, have you considered writing speculative fiction?)

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I think it's a pretty fair summary. They game the system to get invalid results, we modify the rules to make sure only deserving books win. The only real difference is if you like the results or not. The sad puppies basically brought the clique issue to a head. It's not a shock that the only two years that Baen got a book in the finalist was when the sad puppies were active.

The last science fiction convention I attended was Norwescon in 2018. I was chatting with some people about which books we were reading. Out of a group of ~10, 2/3 of them were totally disgusted that I would read any books from Baen. Evidently Baen was not considered politically correct. There are no "persons of colour" in Baen books which came as a bit of a surprise to me, there are no women other than in trivial roles (I guess they'd never read any of David Weber's Honor Harrington books). Too much military in the books—after all in the future, humanity will have given up war and the aliens could never had had such an aberration in their pasts. Or in the case of Eric Flint's 1632 series, the inhabitants of Grantville should have been able to declare peace against the world.

Admittedly, the same people also disapproved of the Harry Potter stories since there are too few persons of colour, too few "strong" female characters, too few characters who display a non-heterosexual gender expression, etc. No mention of the number of young readers (and their parents) who would probably be rather confused as to why Rowling was writing graphic sex scenes featuring, for example, Grindelwald and Dumbledore as was one person's suggestion to "improve" the stories.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The last science fiction convention I attended was Norwescon in 2018. I was chatting with some people about which books we were reading. Out of a group of ~10, 2/3 of them were totally disgusted that I would read any books from Baen. Evidently Baen was not considered politically correct. There are no

I can't believe any of what you said. Nope. No way possible anything other than "best book" has ever been part of the process.

But seriously....not enough strong female roles in Harry Potter? Come on. Great women characters, both evil and good.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by issybird

Well, in GR’s case, it’s as good a place as any to go and log my books. And, back in the day, it’s where I’d get the very useful feed of what my friends were reading. It’s still there, but much less space is devoted to it, pretty much just the chinks between the promotional matter. Instead, I get to see: “Based on your reading preferences you might like” and then the titles of promoted books that have nothing at all in common with anything I’ve ever read, much less enjoyed.

I still see a feed of what my friends are reading. I use an ad blocker. Maybe that's the difference?

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The last science fiction convention I attended was Norwescon in 2018. I was chatting with some people about which books we were reading. Out of a group of ~10, 2/3 of them were totally disgusted that I would read any books from Baen. Evidently Baen was not considered politically correct. There are no "persons of colour" in Baen books which came as a bit of a surprise to me, there are no women other than in trivial roles (I guess they'd never read any of David Weber's Honor Harrington books). Too much military in the books—after all in the future, humanity will have given up war and the aliens could never had had such an aberration in their pasts. Or in the case of Eric Flint's 1632 series, the inhabitants of Grantville should have been able to declare peace against the world.

Admittedly, the same people also disapproved of the Harry Potter stories since there are too few persons of colour, too few "strong" female characters, too few characters who display a non-heterosexual gender expression, etc. No mention of the number of young readers (and their parents) who would probably be rather confused as to why Rowling was writing graphic sex scenes featuring, for example, Grindelwald and Dumbledore as was one person's suggestion to "improve" the stories.

I'm not sure if we are supposed to be tut-tutting over the state of people today or what. But if those are the people going to conventions and participating, then it explains the most recent Hugo winners. As was mentioned earlier:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Because, it should be noted, HUGOS were intended as a *popularity* contest among *readers*. In contrast to the NEBULA AWARDS which were intended as a recognition of craftmanship from the *authors*.

Whose fault is it that Baen readers don't go to conventions?

Again, this sounds a bit like "get off my lawn!"

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by hildea

pwalker8, I'm curious: Exactly what do you think Tor is doing? And how are they doing it?

Are they paying for lots of Worldcon memberships, under the condition that the recipients nominate and vote for Tor books? And have they managed to do this secretly, for years, without a single bribed voter spilling the beans about what's going on?

(And if that's what you're thinking, have you considered writing speculative fiction?)

Of course not, that's not the way cliques work. I went to the WorldCon way back when, when it was in Atlanta. For some strange reason, no one mentioned being able to vote in the Hugos or anything like that. It's one of those, those who know, know. Those who don't won't things (very obscure movie quote). If you make friends with someone in the clique and fit in, then you get invited in. If you don't, you just kind of drift around and wonder why people come to these things.

It's a lot more like if Baen fans had taken over and voted their favorite Baen books every year (which is what sad puppies was kind of about). It doesn't require a conspiracy. Just a lot of group think and a tendency to close the circle rather than open it. That's a reference to what happens in parties sometime when someone walks up to a group talking. Some groups will kind of turn their backs on the newcomer, other groups will shuffle aside to let the newcomer in. The Hugo cliques idea isn't unique to me, it's been around for a long time. Usually, where there is smoke, there is a certain amount of fire. I think there is a fair amount of evidence that there is a fire.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I'm not sure if we are supposed to be tut-tutting over the state of people today or what. But if those are the people going to conventions and participating, then it explains the most recent Hugo winners. As was mentioned earlier:

Whose fault is it that Baen readers don't go to conventions?

Not sure about that. I've liked quite a few of the recent Hugo winners. But long gone are the days when I would have read all the Hugo best novel nominees. These days I may have read one or two of them.

OTOH, I've gotten tired of listening as to why older Hugo awards should never have been awarded to the books that won. Going to hop into your time machine and make sure Lord of Light did not win the 1968 Hugo for best novel (also a year where Star Trek was guaranteed to win the best dramatic presentation)? Being hectored about J. K. Rowling winning the 2001 Hugo for Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire given her current state of political incorrectness. Yes, Robert J. Sawyer's Calculating God or George R. R. Martin's A Storm of Swords might have been a better choice in many ways. If only they managed to sell as many copies as J. K. Rowling did. As far as I am concerned, the Hugos are a popularity contest and have never had any pretensions of being anything else. You want literary pretensions, hit the Nebula awards.

As for Baen readers not going to conventions? I've met quite a few other Baen fans at various cons. In many ways, a rather jaded and cynical group that I've had several enjoyable drinks and conversations with.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I've gotten tired of listening as to why older Hugo awards should never have been awarded to the books that won.

Well, there you go. Older fans get tired of younger fans bitching about previous winners. Younger fans get tired of older fans bitching about current winners.

It's the circle of life.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Well, there you go. Older fans get tired of younger fans bitching about previous winners. Younger fans get tired of older fans bitching about current winners.

It's the circle of life.

You had to go there It took years the last time to get that song out of my head when we made the mistake of getting the VHS tape as a present for our daughter's birthday (1995? 1996?).

As for bitching about previous winners? I don't mind that much when the bitching is about flaws in the story but when the complaint is about the author's behaviour or lack of political correctness as was the case of one gripe session about Harlan Ellison and his collection of Hugos for short stories/novelettes when he won yet another Hugo in 2011. Yes, he could be an unmitigated ass but he could also write stories that grabbed the reader. At least that's what I felt about I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream, Jeffty Is Five, Repent, Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman and quite a few others of the stories he penned.

Of course, if I had a working Tardis... I have a little list, they'll never be missed.