Textbook Torrents says final goodbye

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Just because a site runs on Linux does not mean it was free. RedHat is very popular but not free. Service is important to business users and free typically has no support.

From a practical standpoint we have more problem with solving problems using support for non-free software and hardware then we have with solving problems for free software and open hardware. Just because somebody claim they support something does not mean that it works in real situations.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by jaffab

1) You go to a party and take a CD, and 20 people dance to the music. Yet none of them have purchased the CD
2) You read a (p)book, and its good, so you lend it to your wife, she reads it, and likes it, so lends it to a friend.
3) You buy a DVD and a friend comes over for the evening, and you watch the DVD together – but only you have paid for the DVD.

The point being is that all of these are normal activities in which copyright is broken, and people enjoy an item without the needs to purchase their own copy. So where, legally, is the line drawn.

A copy is NOT made in any of these examples, so there is no copyright violation. Although the MPAA might want to claim you put on a "public" viewing of the movie in instance 3, but I doubt it.

Now, if you change the above to:

1. I rip my CD and burn a new copy of it, take it to a party and leave it here.
2. I xerox a pbook making 10 coppied and pass a copy to each of my closest friends.
3. My friend points a video camera at the screen while the movie is playing and takes the video recording home.

Now, in the above three cases a "copy" was made hence violating copyright.

BOb

[davidspitzer]

I am a law student and the text books are just ridiculous in price. I have written some of the electronic text book sights and told them they could do a lot better if they aligned themselves with some of the ebook readers on the market. Reading on my laptop doesn't do it for me.

My solution is I go on amazon and buy the most busted up copy I can find usually at a 1/10th of the new price for the express purpose of cutting off the binding and running it through my scansnap - I have legally purchased a copy which I place on my shelf and convert it to PDF which I read on my SONY 505 and hopefully soon to arrive Irex 1000 reader.

The publishers can make it work if they choose and I have no problem buying it in electronic format, but I do not want to be tied to a laptop. I want to read it how I want to read it.

[Patricia]

I'm a philosophy lecturer. I know that my students don't have a lot of money. So, while I may recommend a heavily annotated and expensive translation and commentary of Plato's Theaetetus, I also mention the cheap paper versions and the electronic free versions available. They all feature on my booklists. If the students borrow the expensive version from the library and photocopy the notes then that is up to them.
I also point them towards second-hand book sites.

[Dave Berk]

Originally Posted by Patricia

I'm a philosophy lecturer. I know that my students don't have a lot of money. So, while I may recommend a heavily annotated and expensive translation and commentary of Plato's Theaetetus, I also mention the cheap paper versions and the electronic free versions available. They all feature on my booklists. If the students borrow the expensive version from the library and photocopy the notes then that is up to them.
I also point them towards second-hand book sites.

OT:
I wouldn't mind a recommendation or two, if you can. Good philosophy books for the uninitiated, if such exist in electronic version. Will be good getting recs from an expert

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Patricia

I'm a philosophy lecturer. I know that my students don't have a lot of money. So, while I may recommend a heavily annotated and expensive translation and commentary of Plato's Theaetetus, I also mention the cheap paper versions and the electronic free versions available. They all feature on my booklists. If the students borrow the expensive version from the library and photocopy the notes then that is up to them.
I also point them towards second-hand book sites.

I trust that you point them at my "Complete Works of Plato", Patricia .

[Patricia]

I certainly do, Harry.

Dave, you might like to start with Jean-Paul Sartre's Existentialism and Humanism. It is short, yet raises some important questions about the purpose of life. We have it on this site.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Dave Berk

OT:
I wouldn't mind a recommendation or two, if you can. Good philosophy books for the uninitiated, if such exist in electronic version. Will be good getting recs from an expert

As a good layman's overview of the topic, I like Will Durant's _The Story of Philosophy_, which covers the major streams of philosophical thought along with brief biographies of prominent philosophers.

I don't believe it's available in eBook form, but mass market PB editions seem to be readily available.

The Will Durant Foundation has a website here with samples of his writing and an overview of his life and career.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I'd expected more imagination from you, Dennis. Anything can exist outside of a capitalistic framework. Certainly textbook publishing could. It already does. See http://www.wikibooks.org/ for just one example.

I should have had the imagination to substitute a different term for "capitalistic", as it's a loaded word that muddies the waters.

Say rather, the creation of textbooks requires time and effort by trained experts in the topics the texts cover. It's possible they do other things to make their living, and are willing to contribute their time and services on a pro bono basis. It's also possible they may need to be paid for their labor. And the books must be edited and proofread, and put through a production process, whether electronic or hardcopy versions are the end result. If hardcopy is the desired output, the books must be printed and bound, warehoused and distributed. There will be monetary costs, and the money has to come from somewhere, regardless of the economic system under which they are produced.

I'm aware of wikibooks, and it's a product of folks who make their living in others ways donating time and effort. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that model can fully meet the demands for educational texts.

I think the science-related pages suffer much less from problems in this area than some of the more sensitive contemporary topics. Most pages on Wikipedia tend to be pretty self-policing, and checking the Talk tab and revision history gives you a good idea of problems that may exist with the content there, which is more than you can say for most other sources (including print sources).

Agreed on the scientific and technical pages. There at least there are checkable facts though the conclusions drawn from them may be in dispute.

More subjective topics are another matter entirely.

Interestingly, what Wikipedia and its related projects are doing is a form of peer-review.

The problem for Wikipedia is how you determine who is a "peer", when anyone can make an edit.

If some enterprising organization were to make an easy-to-use way for faculty members to select chapters of existing books plus journal articles and save the results so that students could be assigned a POD or ebook version of the compilation, for a price competitive with existing textbooks, I think it would change the market entirely (and for the better).

I concur, and I don't see technical obstacles to doing it. I do see a lot of obstruction and foot dragging from people with a stake in the way things are done now.
______
Dennis

[Dave Berk]

Patricia:
Thanks for the rec. I don't really believe that life has any intrinsic meaning or purpose but I'm always open to read a different opinion.

DMcCunney:
Thanks. I looked at it on Amazon. Seems to be exactly what I was looking for. TA.

It's a shame it's not available as ebook. Or on PG (been 70 years since first printing). I requested it on the Kindle but I don't think they will pay attention unless they get many more requests...

(There really should be a hint emoticon)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Dave Berk

Patricia:
Thanks for the rec. I don't really believe that life has any intrinsic meaning or purpose but I'm always open to read a different opinion.

From where I sit, "meaning" is something we ascribe to life, and not an inherent property. That doesn't make attempts to ascribe meaning any less relevant or important.

DMcCunney:
Thanks. I looked at it on Amazon. Seems to be exactly what I was looking for. TA.

You're welcome. I read it many years ago, and found it a good top level "map", with enough information about the various territories to look for further information on any I found of interest.

It's a shame it's not available as ebook.

Many, many things aren't available as ebooks. For any random book in question, I assume paper, and am pleasantly surprised if an ebook edition exists.

Or on PG (been 70 years since first printing). I requested it on the Kindle but I don't think they will pay attention unless they get many more requests...

The fact that first printing was 70 years ago doesn't make it PD. Current US copyright law has it as life plus 70 years. Durant died in 1981...
______
Dennis

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by Dave Berk

Patricia:
Thanks for the rec. I don't really believe that life has any intrinsic meaning or purpose but I'm always open to read a different opinion.

Then you should get on with Sartre. He suggests that there is no ultimate meaning to life. We choose our own meaning, which can be seen through our choices in life.

[frikk]

Hi everyone! Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I have something I'd like to pick all your brains on. (first post!)

First, I enjoy information for the sake of information. Textbook torrents, to me, seemed to be a place where one could get information that they otherwise would not be exposed to. "The biosphere of the desert? That sounds cool, maybe I'll check it out". Whether or not this is morally correct, I'm not sure.

Second, what about the second hand market? Is it wrong to buy a used book or text book? If ten people, over the course of a year, buy and sell the same book - the publishers are losing out on potential sales (arguable). The point, I guess, that I'm driving at is that piracy is usually 'copyright issues' not 'theft'. Is it wrong to obtain music or downloadable books from a second hand market?

Whats interesting is that having the pirated material is not illegal (even if they want you to believe it is). The process of not compensating the copyright owner is what is illegal. This is civil, not criminal (right?) If I have a music CD, and I can't remember where I got it, am I a criminal? (Did I download it? For Free, legally, or Pirated? Did I pay for it? Did I get it from a friend? Was this his only copy? Did HE download it illegally? Was this a promotional album from a label? Did I rip this from vinyl? Did I download it illegally but actually have the CD somewhere in my closet?) - all these questions mix together with similar possible answers for both pirated music and legal music. If my friend gives me a burnt CD, I am not a criminal depending on where he obtained the music.

Anyway, I digress. The point of this post: How do you feel about the second hand market, with respect to textbook torrents?

[Danny Fekete]

Ah, tasty old chestnut. Hi, Frikk.

For doot and jocularity, let's posit a value system where "good" is equated with the proliferation of information. The purpose of content creation under this system is to increase the sum information content in brains throughout the universe, so if I produce content with 1 information unit that impacts five readers and then stops transmitting, I've increased the information content of the universe by 5 units.

Under this system, the following seems fair:
- Cost of information (price of a book, say) reduces the likelihood of it being absorbed by another brain, and thereby restrains the increase of information content in the universe
- Revenue produced by distributing information (ideally) increases the viability and future impact of a book distribution channel (such as a publisher) or a content creator, and thereby seeds the future increase of information content in the universe

In this system, the vending of content is a compromise or optimisation of these two variables, so "second-hand books" and a system like TextbookTorrents represent a balance where distribution is prioritised largely or completely over sustainability. If you agree with the initial assumption that "greatest good" lies in generating the greatest possible proliferation of content, then the doing of good lies in optimising these variables. The complexities that affect them include distribution of wealth, kinds of incentives for content creators and distributors (academic prestige, for example, may be more important to a content creator than revenue for time and effort expended), among other variables.

This is an approximation of my moral framework as it pertains to things like TextbookTorrents and second-hand book vending. My calculations haven't been very sophisticated or rigorous, in terms of where I stand on the optimisation question, but I'm currently operating under an assumption that free distribution of digital content can be sustained by non-monetary incentive systems (or at least, systems where direct financial remuneration is unnecessary: content creation could be encouraged and sustained by government-based artistic stipends and university salaries which reward impact but also foster new authors).

[Neil]

Actually in genre fiction a sale of 10,000 is not pathetic.