KFX and Amazon's policies

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

What is wrong with continue giving Amazon money for a service that does not need DRM circumvention in the first place? There is no alternative with the same selection. Buying ebooks you can do from different stores - whichever store still gives the option to bypass DRM is the one that will get your money.

Because I misread Josie's comment.
I read it as if I can't DRM my books I am done with Amazon, but will still do KU.
Done with Amazon to me meant not giving them one penny ever.
Not I will continue to support them but I will have nothing in the end.

To me, going with KU says since you won't let me do what I want I will just rent from you so you make more money and the author makes less money than if I bought the book.
Enjoy the extra cash.

Sorry but if I felt the way Josie does, I wouldn't give Amazon one red cent.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by darryl

That it has been done in epub proves it can be done. However, according to DiapDealer's comments, the epub implementation "will render differently (from subtle to drastic) in every app and on every device." KFX, on the other hand, gives a very similar rendering across all Amazon devices and apps which support it. As I understand it to achieve this in kf8 would not be trivial and may require changes to the format and/or the renderer on each device. Or failing this, customised kf8 files for each book/device combination. I very much doubt it would be impossible, but it does seem likely that Amazon chose kfx for good technical reasons, perhaps that achieving what they wanted was much easier technically and more efficient with kfx.

But, given that Amazon has device that hande KF8 and not KFX, Amazon should have done these things with the KF8 renderer because of this in order to give more people a better reading experience. Heck, Sony was able to add ePub support the the 500 even though it's rather an old device. Also, it's possible to fit a KF8 compatible firmware onto a DX. So yes, there's more Amazon could do but like Apple, they don't care about older devices and want people to buy newer devices when there's nothing wrong with what they have and what they have could have been updated.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by haertig

This is of course what the vendors want. It becomes a continuing revenue stream for them.

But it also drives customer behavior. Example: How many here have any qualms about stripping DRM off of books they buy? I would put forth, "not very many". What the vendor wants is for you to "license" reading this content to only one device. But that concept drove customer behavior long ago. Behavior was driven to "Where to I find something to strip DRM off my books?" The idea of paying ownership level prices for something they tell you you don't own just doesn't pass the smell test for most people. And their behavior is driven as a result. I would venture to say that stripping DRM from your personally owned books is considered perfectly acceptable behavior to most everybody here. You have to take care posting about it, or you'll get slapped by the mods, who in all likelyhood are stripping the DRM off their own books too, just like everybody else. Kind of silly to have this rule when you think about the practicality of it, but it is to protect the forum from vendors and lawyers, so it is a necessary rule.

For the few that do have qualms about stripping DRM, what if in addition to (or as a replacement of) your purchase price, they soon decide that you need to pay a yearly maintenance or subscription fee? For a book that you read once, ten years ago, but hope to read again some time in the future? My guess is that there would be nobody left who would give a second thought to stripping the DRM that would enable this subscription model.

Behavior is driven. What is considered acceptable is driven by what you are told is not acceptable - taking into account how much you paid to "buy" whatever it is that they are trying to control. If traditionally you've been able to pay $X to own something, and now you're told that you still have to pay $X (or even more!) and NOT own it, well, as I said, the resulting behavior is driven.

Hello. Are you aware that one can buy or lease a car? Are you aware you can buy a dwelling or rent a dwelling?
There is no one behavior fits all.
As to books, there are many ways to acquire books so no it is not behavior driven.
Look I can pay X and buy a whatever. I could also pay X and rent the same whatever.
There are no whatever police telling me I must pay X to NOT own a whatever.
I choose whether I want to buy whatever or just pay to use whatever.

Last time I checked there was no law that says you have to go through Company to only use whatever on their terms. (Exception being ISBN and railroad tracks.)

[darryl]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

In Kindle world is it not true that the devices, the firmware and the book formats are all totally controlled by Amazon. Therefore why would I not also conclude that any current problematic user reading experiences are problems entirely of Amazon's own making?

You absolutely should. But you also should not assume that because you and some others and even I regard the lack of any particular feature as a problem, that the vast majority of readers do also.

Originally Posted by jackie_w

If we also include the phone/tablet market, the number of people using anything other than Kindle4Android or Kindle4IOS to read MOBI/KF8 books must be miniscule and therefore, by your own reasoning, too niche for Amazon to care about. Once again, Amazon proprietary apps, so my conclusion is the same as above.

On the contrary, Amazon want their ebooks on their apps to render very similarly to their ebooks on any other one of their devices. The word niche is in fact quite misleading in this context, though not entirely inappropriate. The point is that Amazon is unlikely to consider adding a feature unless a significant number care about it.

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Reading these forums, it seems the definition of "niche" is "features offered by other brands which Kindles do not currently have". I could swear that demand for screens bigger than 6" was being dismissed as "niche" this time last year. Am I also to believe that adding a few more options for margin-widths and/or line-spacing would cause a meltdown on the CS phones, whereas the recent adding of a few more font-sizes won't?

Each feature adds bloat and possible confusion, and many readers are not in the least technical. My theory is that Amazon wants to stick to the KISS principle as far as possible. This explains its evident reluctance to add any new feature, and its delay in doing so.

You are correct about the 7 inch reader. It was clear that there was a demand for this size screen. Amazon, of course, could not just roll-out a firmware upgrade to increase the screen size of its existing readers. New products do take some time, and clearly Amazon was playing catch-up on this particular development.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Hello. Are you aware that one can buy or lease a car? Are you aware you can buy a dwelling or rent a dwelling?
There is no one behavior fits all.
As to books, there are many ways to acquire books so no it is not behavior driven.
Look I can pay X and buy a whatever. I could also pay X and rent the same whatever.
There are no whatever police telling me I must pay X to NOT own a whatever.
I choose whether I want to buy whatever or just pay to use whatever.

Last time I checked there was no law that says you have to go through Company to only use whatever on their terms. (Exception being ISBN and railroad tracks.)

OK. Since you say I have a choice to buy/rent, then tell me where I can buy the newly released eBook I want, James Rollins "The Demon Crown" and actually own it, as in "do whatever I want with it, read it on any of my devices, store it and have access to it regardless if the selling company goes out of business, regardless if my current electronic device dies and is no longer made, give/sell/trade the book to whomever I want when I'm done with it."

I would appreciate a link where it can be purchased with all the things traditional ownership grants you. If the seller retains control into infinity, you most certainly don't own it. If you say I have a choice, please tell me where/how to exercise that choice for this specific example.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by darryl

Each feature adds bloat and possible confusion, and many readers are not in the least technical. My theory is that Amazon wants to stick to the KISS principle as far as possible. This explains its evident reluctance to add any new feature, and its delay in doing so.

Why not have simplified setting like they do now and a set of "advanced" settings for those that want them? That way, you cannot accidentally have to deal with the advanced settings if you do not want. And you can deal with them if you want. Problem solved. But, I cannot see Amazon doing that. It's too logical. One thing Amazon doesn't get is that it is not only the screen size, it's also the features of the Kobo Reader that other go for vs. Kindles. And until Amazon adds these, others will go for Kobo. The only thing I cannot see Amazon doing is supporting ePub. If you use Overdrive outside the US, Kobo is better because most people won't be able to use Overdrive with a Kindle.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But, given that Amazon has device that hande KF8 and not KFX, Amazon should have done these things with the KF8 renderer because of this in order to give more people a better reading experience. Heck, Sony was able to add ePub support the the 500 even though it's rather an old device. Also, it's possible to fit a KF8 compatible firmware onto a DX. So yes, there's more Amazon could do but like Apple, they don't care about older devices and want people to buy newer devices when there's nothing wrong with what they have and what they have could have been updated.

This is unfortunately true. I would prefer that a company support its older products forever, at least when I own one of them. But companies don't do this, even if they can. Once again, it's mainly a numbers game, with possible damage to reputation thrown in. But in this situation, of course, Amazon continues to offer kf8 for its older devices. I can't see its brand suffering because it either cannot or chooses not to roll-out kfx on these older devices. Also, of course, Amazon wants its customers to upgrade. I would not be surprised eventually to see some very attractive upgrade offers on some of these earlier devices, which will ensure minimal damage to or perhaps even enhance Amazon's brand as these readers are phased out. Whether you want to accept the offer or not.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by darryl

This is unfortunately true. I would prefer that a company support its older products forever, at least when I own one of them. But companies don't do this, even if they can. Once again, it's mainly a numbers game, with possible damage to reputation thrown in. But in this situation, of course, Amazon continues to offer kf8 for its older devices. I can't see its brand suffering because it either cannot or chooses not to roll-out kfx on these older devices. Also, of course, Amazon wants its customers to upgrade. I would not be surprised eventually to see some very attractive upgrade offers on some of these earlier devices, which will ensure minimal damage to or perhaps even enhance Amazon's brand as these readers are phased out. Whether you want to accept the offer or not.

I don't know the hardware requirements for KFX. It could be that the older Kindles cannot handle KFX due to hardware limitations. But for Kindles that can handle KF8, Amazon should make the renderer do the enhanced typesetting. The other KFX features, I don't think most people will know of them and thus won't miss them. They will notice the enhanced typesetting and be happy to have it. I know it would mean less upgrading, but it would also mean more happy customers and maybe more will buy Kindles knowing that Amazon supports older models so what they by now will be viable for a long time.

Take Kobo, from the Kobo Glo on up, they are officially supporting the new firmware that was just released. The three versions of the Kobo Touch has a newish firmware and the Kobo Mini has an older firmware (officially but the newish firmware is reported to work). So given if you have an older device, the main reason to upgrade is not that you want firmware features that you cannot get. It's because you want the newer hardware.

I know Amazon cannot do this because of the hardware, but they can do more then they are now.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why not have simplified setting like they do now and a set of "advanced" settings for those that want them? That way, you cannot accidentally have to deal with the advanced settings if you do not want. And you can deal with them if you want. Problem solved. But, I cannot see Amazon doing that. It's too logical. One thing Amazon doesn't get is that it is not only the screen size, it's also the features of the Kobo Reader that other go for vs. Kindles. And until Amazon adds these, others will go for Kobo. The only thing I cannot see Amazon doing is supporting ePub. If you use Overdrive outside the US, Kobo is better because most people won't be able to use Overdrive with a Kindle.

This is a way to be all things to all people. But we are talking embedded devices with limited resources. But, even if this is not a problem, we are then back to whether sufficient numbers of people want these features to justify their implementation.

Some people do go for Kobo readers because of additional features and control vs Amazon devices. But not enough. Nowhere near enough. We will know if the number grows sufficiently for Amazon to care because Amazon will then look at why it is losing market share and attempt to address it. But it seems very few care.

Yes. Forget Amazon supporting epub.

As for library books, Kobo would usually be a better choice outside of the US, but only for readers who want to make extensive use of Overdrive and cannot or will not remove drm from a library book to read it on a Kindle. I suspect that if ever the numbers become big enough, Amazon will offer its ebooks for library lending outside of the US.

Nearly everything comes down to the numbers game. Those who want more features generally don't have the numbers right now.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by darryl

This is a way to be all things to all people. But we are talking embedded devices with limited resources. But, even if this is not a problem, we are then back to whether sufficient numbers of people want these features to justify their implementation.

Some people do go for Kobo readers because of additional features and control vs Amazon devices. But not enough. Nowhere near enough. We will know if the number grows sufficiently for Amazon to care because Amazon will then look at why it is losing market share and attempt to address it. But it seems very few care.

If you had a Kindle firmware with the features Kobo has, I can see some people going Kindle instead of Kobo. Amazon's adding more font sizes and the font weight control is in response to Kobo. The larger screen size is also in response to Kobo. Amazon is trying to play catch up with Kobo.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by haertig

OK. Since you say I have a choice to buy/rent, then tell me where I can buy the newly released eBook I want, James Rollins "The Demon Crown" and actually own it, as in "do whatever I want with it, read it on any of my devices, store it and have access to it regardless if the selling company goes out of business, regardless if my current electronic device dies and is no longer made, give/sell/trade the book to whomever I want when I'm done with it."

I would appreciate a link where it can be purchased with all the things traditional ownership grants you. If the seller retains control into infinity, you most certainly don't own it. If you say I have a choice, please tell me where/how to exercise that choice for this specific example.

I see your point now. It rather got lost to me in your other post. I can't get you that format but then I don't make a distinction with content. If I can't find it in one form, I can find it in another.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why not have simplified setting like they do now and a set of "advanced" settings for those that want them? That way, you cannot accidentally have to deal with the advanced settings if you do not want. And you can deal with them if you want. Problem solved. But, I cannot see Amazon doing that. It's too logical. One thing Amazon doesn't get is that it is not only the screen size, it's also the features of the Kobo Reader that other go for vs. Kindles. And until Amazon adds these, others will go for Kobo. The only thing I cannot see Amazon doing is supporting ePub. If you use Overdrive outside the US, Kobo is better because most people won't be able to use Overdrive with a Kindle.

For your second line, you owe me a new tablet and please come clean the tea off everything else.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

For your second line, you owe me a new tablet and please come clean the tea off everything else.

Do you want Tylenol or aspirin?

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Do you want Tylenol or aspirin?

Aleve please.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Aleve please.

I can get you Tylenol or Bayer. Your choice.