New Zealand adds 15% GST to (some) ebooks from today

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Phogg

Everyone is Captain Kirk.

Would 99 lead balloons be enough to fill a lead zepplin?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Of course it works well.
Especially for taxpayers. Those that believe in tax-and-spend regimes get to put their own money where there mouths are and the rest...
Well, Non-payment of use tax is a valid form of civil disobedience.
And safe.

We must agree to differ. Personally I find tax evasion to be rather despicable. It's essentially stealing from everyone in society. I certainly see nothing admirable in it.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We must agree to differ. Personally I find tax evasion to be rather despicable. It's essentially stealing from everyone in society. I certainly see nothing admirable in it.

I agree that there is certainly nothing admirable about it. However, I don't regard it as particularly despicable, nor do I regard it as stealing from Society. Unlike avoidance, which is within the law, evasion, a term I presume you use deliberately, is not. I don't condone tax evasion, but I certainly don't despise those who engage in it. Most tax systems are progressive on paper but in practical operation are extremely regressive. And ridiculously complicated. And with many avoidance (as opposed to evasion) opportunities available to particular taxpayers who can afford good accountants and lawyers. Which, of course, although within the law, also leads to higher taxes for the rest of society. Evasion, usually small scale, by other taxpayer's is not a good thing, but it is not robbery nor is it usually something I would class as reprehensible. It is also made very easy for an evader to rationalise by reference to large scale avoidance and out of control government spending.

Yes, evasion is against the law and I don't encourage it. But I certainly unerstand it and am not without some sympathy.

[auspex]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

I am also sure that they are also not sure how "they" will enforce it :-). In fact I would be sure that they know that they cannot enforce it by any action beyond the border because they have no jurisdiction whatsoever over the tax affairs of tax non-residents.

Canada manages to enforce it on a great many companies selling goods to Canadians from the US (and yes, we pay GST on e-books).

If you're a little company you'd get away with it (and if small enough aren't even required to collect it), though if you buy something from a foreign company and don't pay the GST you're expected to report it (as if!).

If the two countries have a tax treaty, then they DO have some jurisdiction over the tax affairs of non-residents. What is not enforceable is how you make a party liable for collection of tax when the customer lies about his location and has no physical delivery. But most customers won't do that.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We must agree to differ. Personally I find tax evasion to be rather despicable. It's essentially stealing from everyone in society. I certainly see nothing admirable in it.

No problem.
Just consider that other people have other value systems and that in the US resistance against taxation via avoidance is common. There's this entire political movement data back decades that works to minimize government intrusion in people's lives by reducing government's ability to spend. It has culminated in a populist movement supported by 30-40% of the electorate who resent all the taxes and the waste they support; things like roads to nowhere, vote-buying giveaways, corporate welfare, bloated bureaucracies, sweetheart consultant contracts, rewarding campaign contributors, etc. There is a lot of anger and resentment out there and starving government of even miniscule amounts is the only effective act of rebellion open to many.

And no, it is definitely not "stealing" from anybody. It is more like minimizing theft by corrupt politicians and their cronies. Tax avoidance at the petty levels of use tax, cigarette smuggling, etc, is simply people rebelling against oppression and hardly comparable to the actual avoidance by the wealthy with their armies of lawyers and accountants.

The premise that tax monies goes to provide essential services to all is demonstrably false: In the US, government agencies since 2011 have been hit with massive across-the board spending cuts under "sequester" and the effect to society was...nothing. Waste continues unabated, too, despite the billions in spending cutbacks.

It is a big country with big problems.

Different societies, different values.
It comes down to whether one believes government is entitled to take whatever they want without limit or opposition just because they say so, just because they can. Not everybody buys that. Some people resent having their hard earned money taken away to no good effect, others meekly comply.

Things are different everywhere.
Not everybody shares my values. Not everybody shares yours.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We must agree to differ. Personally I find tax evasion to be rather despicable. It's essentially stealing from everyone in society. I certainly see nothing admirable in it.

That assumes that government has the right to all the money that everyone makes. The idea that laws should be obeyed regardless was settled back in 1946. As mentioned earlier, Americans have a long history of ignoring laws that we disagree with.

It's been said that the major difference in between Europe and America is that in Europe, that which is not expressly permitted is forbidden. In America, that which is not expressly forbidden, is permitted. Last most generalities, there are a lot of exceptions to that, but for the most part, Americans are a lot more oriented towards individual freedom than most parts of the world.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

No problem.
Just consider that other people have other value systems and that in the US resistance against taxation via avoidance is common. There's this entire political movement data back decades that works to minimize government intrusion in people's lives by reducing government's ability to spend. It has culminated in a populist movement supported by 30-40% of the electorate who resent all the taxes and the waste they support; things like roads to nowhere, vote-buying giveaways, corporate welfare, bloated bureaucracies, sweetheart consultant contracts, rewarding campaign contributors, etc. There is a lot of anger and resentment out there and starving government of even miniscule amounts is the only effective act of rebellion open to many.

And no, it is definitely not "stealing" from anybody. It is more like minimizing theft by corrupt politicians and their cronies. Tax avoidance at the petty levels of use tax, cigarette smuggling, etc, is simply people rebelling against oppression and hardly comparable to the actual avoidance by the wealthy with their armies of lawyers and accountants.

The premise that tax monies goes to provide essential services to all is demonstrably false: In the US, government agencies since 2011 have been hit with massive across-the board spending cuts under "sequester" and the effect to society was...nothing. Waste continues unabated, too, despite the billions in spending cutbacks.

It is a big country with big problems.

Different societies, different values.
It comes down to whether one believes government is entitled to take whatever they want without limit or opposition just because they say so, just because they can. Not everybody buys that. Some people resent having their hard earned money taken away to no good effect, others meekly comply.

Things are different everywhere.
Not everybody shares my values. Not everybody shares yours.

Preach on, brother, preach on.

(ok, time to stock the bunker, I am in violent agreement with fjtorres, a sure sign of the coming Apocalypse! )

[darryl]

It is not that unusual that i agree with fjtorres. But again so soon with you pwalker8! I do think there is a great deal to be said for not obeying bad laws, though one must be prepared to suffer the consequences of being caught. The law is not the same as morality. In fact far too often it is not even close.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

...It has culminated in a populist movement supported by 30-40% of the electorate who resent all the taxes and the waste they support; ...

The premise that tax monies goes to provide essential services to all is demonstrably false: ...

Certainly there is waste, but if taxes don't pay for bridges, roads, schools, police, military, social services, etc. then what does?

ETA: We elect the government. We (collectively) have no one to blame but ourselves.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

And no, it is definitely not "stealing" from anybody. It is more like minimizing theft by corrupt politicians and their cronies. Tax avoidance at the petty levels of use tax, cigarette smuggling, etc, is simply people rebelling against oppression and hardly comparable to the actual avoidance by the wealthy with their armies of lawyers and accountants.

Let's be clear about terms:

"Tax avoidance" is minimising your tax payments by legal means.
"Tax evasion" is not paying taxes that the law requires you to pay, and is a crime.

The premise that tax monies goes to provide essential services to all is demonstrably false

Where does the money to fund essential services come from if not from tax revenue?

The reason that I personally consider tax evasion to be a rather despicable crime is that the people who do it are presumably happy to use the services that the taxes paid by honest people provide, while choosing not to pay a contribution to those services themselves.

However, as you say, people feel differently about this.

[auspex]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Most individuals know the exact sales tax rate they pay since they pay it pretty much every time they make a local purchase.

That's only true in countries where the sales tax is added onto the purchase price. In many countries, you only see a "tax included" price, and then you rarely know what the tax is.

[auspex]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Let's be clear about terms:

"Tax avoidance" is minimising your tax payments by legal means.
"Tax evasion" is not paying taxes that the law requires you to pay, and is a crime.

Depends where you are. The Canada Revenue Agency calls "tax avoidance" a crime. They say that minimizing your tax payments in a way that is "consistent with the intent of the law" (note that they don't care about the letter of the law!) is "tax planning". Hilary Clinton calls Donald Trump's tax avoidance morally reprehensible, whether it be found to be legal or not.

Personally, I find consumption taxes to be more despicable than avoiding them. They're regressive and hurt the poor more than the rich.

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by auspex

That's only true in countries where the sales tax is added onto the purchase price. In many countries, you only see a "tax included" price, and then you rarely know what the tax is.

Quoting a tax inclusive price for consumers is required and if an tax exclusive price is mentioned it must not be in larger print.

But I see on my Aldi UK till roll that the tax is shown as it is in my Order confirmation email from Amazon.

[auspex]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

Quoting a tax inclusive price for consumers is required and if an tax exclusive price is mentioned it must not be in larger print.

But I see on my Aldi UK till roll that the tax is shown as it is in my Order confirmation email from Amazon.

Jeez, what part of "That's only true in countries where the sales tax is added onto the purchase price" didn't you understand? Yes, that's the case in the UK (and I think all of the EU), but it is not the case in many other countries. It is explicitly forbidden in Canada. In any case, the point being made was that "Most individuals know the exact sales tax rate they pay". In the UK, most people have no idea how much tax they're paying, because they're only given a "tax inclusive" price. In Canada, you always know.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by auspex

Canada manages to enforce it on a great many companies selling goods to Canadians from the US (and yes, we pay GST on e-books).

Taxes and duties on "goods" crossing the border into the country of import are almost universally the responsibility of the importer not the exporter. Tax treaties generally apply to income and capital (to, for example, provide relief from double taxation and prevention of evasion of income and capital taxes), not duties and sales taxes, and make it clear that taxes are not payable in a country unless that entity has a presence there (the Canada/USA Tax Convention is similar).

As I have already said in an earlier post a country may create legislation to enforce its sellers to pay the sales taxes of another country in which the seller does not have a presence . But as we have seen, countries have enough trouble collecting their own taxes without signing themselves up to collecting the taxes or enforcing the taxes of other countries too unless they are in a cartel with an overarching government covering the countries (such as the EU has) to enforce that.

But this thread is about NZ and as far as I am aware NZ has no tax treaty that requires businesses outside of its own jurisdiction to pay GST on imports into NZ - they are always the responsibility of the NZ importer. I have already said that a tax expert has informally called the NZ requirement a publicity stunt.

You need to explain specifically how the Canadian/USA tax treaty/conventions(s) work in enforcing through law (not by jawboning) the foreign exporter without a presence in Canada to pay Canadian taxes on exported soft products, such as eBooks, when they cross the electronic border. As far as I am aware there is no such requirement in the USA/Canada Tax Convention but there may be other US legislation (I am no expert on US tax law but I take it you are and can clarify that). Of course, the US exporter may elect to voluntarily pay the tax on soft goods of another country in which it does not have a presence (as indeed, the likes of Kobo, Amazon, Netflix, are doing with respect to NZ).