What sort of ebook reader do we really want?

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Silverty

I'm not sure what transreflective LCD means but on the pebble website it does say "color e-paper display with LED backlight" and it looks a lot like my ereader but with color.

Don't let a term like e-paper fool you, it is just another fancy name used for a particular brand of LCD.

e-paper is nothing like e-ink and nowhere near as good.

A good e-ink reader has a substrate layer on top, which evenly disperses light across the page, a bit like optical fibre when light is sent through it. A substrate layer is like a very thin sheet of glass. It is much kinder than backlit LED to your eyes.

So we are talking very different devices, with e-ink being vastly superior.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by radius

This implies that the reader is at least as thick as a USB port. I don't want to see that. I think microSD cards are common enough that we can use those for expandable storage.

Ergonomics aside, the thickness of a usb port is not a limiting factor.
You need a power supply and display anyway. A micro USB port is just about 2mm. Much thinner and you cut yourself on the edge of the device, if it didn't shatter like potato chip.

[HarryT]

I don't personally like excessively thin devices. One reason (in addition to protection) that I always put my devices in a cover is that I find the added thickness makes them more comfortable to hold.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Timboli

So we are talking very different devices, with e-ink being vastly superior.

Though it's not impossible that improvements may eventually result in some LCD (or maybe totally new) based technology that's as good as, or better than, eink. I remember the transflective LCD on my PalmOS devices were pretty good for the time, a few factors of improvement in resolution, contrast and power efficiency, and...

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't personally like excessively thin devices. One reason (in addition to protection) that I always put my devices in a cover is that I find the added thickness makes them more comfortable to hold.

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by ApK

Though it's not impossible that improvements may eventually result in some LCD (or maybe totally new) based technology that's as good as, or better than, eink. I remember the transflective LCD on my PalmOS devices were pretty good for the time, a few factors of improvement in resolution, contrast and power efficiency, and...

LCD will never be as good, due to how it works (i.e. refresh rate or as my wife will tell you, a flickering screen ... even though most don't consciously notice it).

E-ink on the other hand, paints a picture and then maintains it with a minute trickle of power. It only refreshes every few pages (or dependent on your settings, every page turn). So there is no flickering.

It is the flickering along with the forward shining light of an LCD screen that tires people's eyes out, especially the elderly.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Not sure how many do, but mine only show a set number of images, none of which are my ebooks. Some newer devices from what I hear, do show a book cover, but I've not seen it myself ... and really, without color and without a transparent one at that, then while better than no book cover, it is not what I and I am sure many others ultimately want.

Kobos show book covers. Even my second generation shows book covers, most specifically the book I am reading so it is not just newer devices.

What do you think many people ultimately want?

Have you talked to at least 10% of all ereader owners?
Here is the thing: if you went to every ereader forum on the net, you would find maybe 5% of all ereader owners. And I figure closer to 1%. Forum users are usually the outliers.

Oh and as far as cracked screens go. None of my ereader screens are cracked. None of them are in covers either. Are you saying that if you put your device in a cover you won't get a cracked screen? I know better just from reading the forums here.

Deleted comment. - Editor

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Timboli

E-ink on the other hand, paints a picture and then maintains it with a minute trickle of power. It only refreshes every few pages (or dependent on your settings, every page turn). So there is no flickering.

Zero trickle of power. No maintenance needed.
The periodic refresh is more to clear unwanted residual elements, to allow new displayed content to look it's best, not to maintain existing content.


As for LCDs I'm no expert, but I believe the refresh "flicker" is about refreshing FAST enough for fluid full motion video. A device designed for text could refresh and respond MUCH slower, to the point where it's not an issue.
Think PalmPilot or Casio watch, not computer monitor.

Also, I really don't know how radically different a display technology might possibly be developed and still be accurately called "LCD," but an LCD watch is very different technology than LCD iPad Retina display, so who knows what other directions it may take.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

As for LCDs I'm no expert, but I believe the refresh "flicker" is about refreshing FAST enough for fluid full motion video. A device designed for text could refresh and respond MUCH slower, to the point where it's not an issue.

That's correct. LCD displays don't flicker - the display remains absolutely static, with zero flickering, for as long as power is applied. As you say, the refresh rate of an LCD screen is purely to allow video, etc, to be displayed smoothly. It doesn't in itself make the display flicker. However, the LED backlighting that LCD displays use can flicker (normally at the mains frequency of 50/60Hz).

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's correct. LCD displays don't flicker - the display remains absolutely static, with zero flickering, for as long as power is applied. As you say, the refresh rate of an LCD screen is purely to allow video, etc, to be displayed smoothly. It doesn't in itself make the display flicker. However, the LED backlighting that LCD displays use can flicker (normally at the mains frequency of 50/60Hz).

the older florescent backlight always flickered but the LED need not flicker just like the front light on E InK need not flicker. It may, however, depending on how dimming is done but it is not locked to the power line so it is usually much faster.

Dale

[barryem]

I currently have all my ereaders in cases, mostly for the convenience of the sleep cover. I've often used them around the house with no case in the days before sleep covers. I got my first ereader in 2009 and I didn't get a case for it. Since then I've probably had 15 or 20 ereaders since I'm kind of a gadget freak. I've used most of them most of the time without cases.

The only one that ever got a scratch on the screen was a Kindle that I loaned to a neighbor with a dog, which scratched the screen while she was reading even though the Kindle had a case at the time. I leave my readers sitting around the house, here and there, where I'm never far from one. None of them has ever been damaged.

So to say that it's wise to use a case and unwise not to, probably true for some people and some situations, isn't always true. Sometimes it just doesn't matter. Several years of convenience might outweigh the rist of a scratched screen. It's not about wisdom. It's an individual thing.

By the way, before I got my first Kindle in 2009 I read ebooks on a Palm for many years. I never had a case or a screen protector and I never damaged or scratched one.

The same is true for tablets. I don't use them with cases. I leave them lying around although I'm always careful to place them screen down on a safe, soft surface. I've scratched one screen and that scratch isn't visible when it's turned on.

I have nothing against covers. I'm currently using them on my readers because of the sleep screen. But I see no problem or lack of wisdom in not using one as long as one is aware of what they're doing.

Barry

[radius]

Originally Posted by Timboli

e-paper is nothing like e-ink and nowhere near as good.

I would say rather that they have different strengths.

e-paper (in the form of transflective colour LCD) can display colour, is much faster to update and has less ghosting, is likely cheaper, is easier to make with higher pixel density using existing techniques.

[radius]

Originally Posted by ApK

Ergonomics aside, the thickness of a usb port is not a limiting factor.
You need a power supply and display anyway. A micro USB port is just about 2mm. Much thinner and you cut yourself on the edge of the device, if it didn't shatter like potato chip.

Ah, but if you do that then you will need a) USB on the go chips/driver/software, and b) to carry a dongle to plug in those USB memory sticks. Then you need to complicate the on-board user interface by having a way to copy books into the device's library. Otherwise you'd have to read with a dongle and USB stick hanging off your e-reader. That doesn't sound like a good experience to me.

Contrast with some form of SD which you can just open a flap and stick into a slot.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by radius

Ah, but if you do that then you will need a) USB on the go chips/driver/software, and b) to carry a dongle to plug in those USB memory sticks. Then you need to complicate the on-board user interface by having a way to copy books into the device's library. Otherwise you'd have to read with a dongle and USB stick hanging off your e-reader. That doesn't sound like a good experience to me.

Contrast with some form of SD which you can just open a flap and stick into a slot.

I was responding to the concern of the device being thick enough for the USB port. (And by the way, since a microSD slot has nonzero thickness, the USB's impact would be even less significant...), not to any other factor of the desirability of USB attached storage vs. microSD storage.

Let's do that now!

I agree with you that MicroSD would be preferable to current USB OTG, both for the form factor, and the data integration, as you say.

BUT:
1. USB 3.x and USB C connectors should result in directly-connectable, nano-size mass storage devices that are more widely compatible and more durable than a MicroSD card. I'm predicting the ubiquitousness of stuff like in the next few years. That will mitigate the form factor issue, when using the same sort of attached storage data integration as a MicroSD, no copying required.

But if you did want or need to copy data.....

2. Most people are absolutely fine with the current user experience of downloading stuff from the cloud to their device, whether it be from Amazon, or a Calibre server, or whatever, and there is no reason the experience, and UI, of getting the data from an attached device should need to be any different. It would just be faster, and not dependent on the network.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by barryem

I'd love to have Moon Reader Pro installed on an e-ink device. It's my favorite reader by far and I read a lot with it on my phone but I just can't read very long on LCD so I do most of my reading on my Kindle. Having Moon+ on an old rooted ereader would be ideal. I think I'd want a lighted ereader though.

If you do this let me know how it turns out. In particular, if you do this and can scroll Moon+ on e-ink I'd like to know. It's the scrolling more than anything else that I like about Moon+.

Barry

I rooted mine (my old T1), but the android available was too old to support anything. So, I unrooted it and it's back to its "original" firmware. It was worth a shot. But I have so many e-readers now, (including my husband's and my phones) that I pretty much have more to choose from than most people I know.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Kobos show book covers. Even my second generation shows book covers, most specifically the book I am reading so it is not just newer devices.

Lucky you, but at this point for me, I am sticking with E-ink Kindles. Alas I believe the newer ones have adverts unless you pay for other.

What do you think many people ultimately want?

Most people, and I am talking about everyone, not just current ereader users, want a suitable replacement to a physical book. I think logic will tell you that.

Have you talked to at least 10% of all ereader owners?
Here is the thing: if you went to every ereader forum on the net, you would find maybe 5% of all ereader owners. And I figure closer to 1%. Forum users are usually the outliers.

How could I or anyone possible do that? And you don't need to. See previous answer.

Oh and as far as cracked screens go. None of my ereader screens are cracked. None of them are in covers either. Are you saying that if you put your device in a cover you won't get a cracked screen? I know better just from reading the forums here.

I think you need to re-read what I said.
Any cover except a metal briefcase, will only be a preventative measure ... and even that really.

Long before I bought my first ereader, I visited this forum and others and followed the stories of broken screens for years ... in fact it put me off buying one (despite how badly I wanted one) ... and the Kindle Keyboard with it's built-in light cover, was the first instance of finding something that gave me a fair level of faith. Many of those broken screens could have been prevented by a decent cover ... and I stress that last, as most covers I have come across, are not decent enough.

Here's a short list.
Protect from keys & metal money etc ... in any bag you place your ereader.
Have a padded solid enough cover, that gives bounce when falling off a bed etc (don't forget you need distance between edge of cover and ereader too, and it is held firmly in place, for those times a cover lands on its edge or end).
Have the same for accidentally leaning on the ereader ... especially in a bag where you may have forgotten it is there ... out of sight out of mind.
Bags can also be knocked or kicked on public transport ... and even pushed against.
Things can also be placed on bags, and unless that is a bag of cement or several bricks etc, you should be able to protect with a decent cover.
And if you are bike rider, and have ereader in a bag, it should be able to survive you coming off in an accident ... bar hitting a brick wall or getting run over etc.
And the list goes on.