DRM and Purchasing?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Well my view is that as a buyer I can use the ebook in any way I like consistent with the laws of the land, but as a licensee I am additionally subject to the conditions of the licence (provided those conditions are themselves lawful.)

Obviously the ebook retailers themselves see a difference, otherwise why would they put something like this in their terms and conditions?

You need the licence, because it grants you the rights you actually need to read the book. If you were governed purely by the law of the land, for example, then assuming that NZ copyright law is similar to that of the UK, you wouldn't be able to read the book because the act of transferring it from your PC to a reading device would be a breach of copyright (you're creating an extra copy of the book). The licence is what grants you that right. Eg, in Amazon's case the licence grants you the right to "view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times". Without that right, you couldn't copy it to any device other than the one on which you originally downloaded it.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You need the licence, because it grants you the rights you actually need to read the book. If you were governed purely by the law of the land, for example, then assuming that NZ copyright law is similar to that of the UK, you wouldn't be able to read the book because the act of transferring it from your PC to a reading device would be a breach of copyright (you're creating an extra copy of the book). The licence is what grants you that right. Eg, in Amazon's case the licence grants you the right to "view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times". Without that right, you couldn't copy it to any device other than the one on which you originally downloaded it.

HarryT, in the US, some Amazon licenses are limited to 6 devices.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

HarryT, in the US, some Amazon licenses are limited to 6 devices.

Yes, but you can still make as many copies of the book as you wish; you just can't read it in on more than 6 devices simultaneously.

[Doonge]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

On the autism part, it was your phrasing. You implied there was something wrong with HarryT. Therefore I read it as insulting to both HarryT and anyone who might be autistic or any form of a handicap.
I am pretty sure if I asked if your IQ was below 60, I would get heavily moderated if not suspended.

I could hold a book in braille and yes some people could read it. Now I couldn't read it because I don't know braille.
You cannot physically hold an ebook.

I don't know. I asked if he was. And yeah I implied that autism had some part that are wrong (but some plus on the side aswell, they are just different, it's just a trade off sometimes). But when you know the diagnosis of somebody, sometimes it helps accepting and dealing with the deficiencies. Long shot related, but some people hate homosexuals at first, especially when they think it's a life choice (I'm not saying it's an excuse to hate), but the human mind is so that when they learn that some (especially males) are born like that and it's not a choice, they become more acceptant and "normal" (they behave less with the guts).

Anyway, since he took it as an insult, I think he's no autistic, so I just hate him (I'm joking ^^).

I think I understand what you mean by derogatory: I was indeed saying that I thought HarryT's way of discussing had flaws. Which I linked to some autists I met in my life. What's derogatory would be saying that I think he's expressing himself badly, correct?


I think you can hold an ebook. You could even hold thousands of them in a tiny USB key. If books are made of paper and glue and ink, ebook (their physical incarnation) are made of magnetic grains (or something else it depends what you use as storage solution, which can change with technology, but you can imagine some weird person storing binary data as big paper card deck). Perhaps we are talking about the limits of the word intagible, but I recall very old courses of philosophy where they said intangible was for stuff like ideas, our perception of color, etc... In a book, or ebook, the intangible part would be the story itself.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Doonge

I don't know. I asked if he was. And yeah I implied that autism had some part that are wrong (but some plus on the side aswell, they are just different, it's just a trade off sometimes). But when you know the diagnosis of somebody, sometimes it helps accepting and dealing with the deficiencies. Long shot related, but some people hate homosexuals at first, especially when they think it's a life choice (I'm not saying it's an excuse to hate), but the human mind is so that when they learn that some (especially males) are born like that and it's not a choice, they become more acceptant and "normal" (they behave less with the guts).

Anyway, since he took it as an insult, I think he's no autistic, so I just hate him (I'm joking ^^).

I think I understand what you mean by derogatory: I was indeed saying that I thought HarryT's way of discussing had flaws. Which I linked to some autists I met in my life. What's derogatory would be saying that I think he's expressing himself badly, correct?


I think you can hold an ebook. You could even hold thousands of them in a tiny USB key. If books are made of paper and glue and ink, ebook (their physical incarnation) are made of magnetic grains (or something else it depends what you use as storage solution, which can change with technology, but you can imagine some weird person storing binary data as big paper card deck). Perhaps we are talking about the limits of the word intagible, but I recall very old courses of philosophy where they said intangible was for stuff like ideas, our perception of color, etc... In a book, or ebook, the intangible part would be the story itself.

You can hold what is holding the ebook but you cannot hold an ebook without a physical holder.
You could have said "HarryT, I think we are misunderstanding each other. Did you mean this or that?" See no name calling or implying.

Oh and on the gays, I know some females that knew from when they were young and others that decided after being hurt by too many males. (But on the second case, most were bisexuals to begin with.)

[Doonge]

Yeah female sexuality is more "fluid" than male, typically.

Of course you can hold the ebook "holder", but that's the ebook isn't it? You could erase its content, as you could erase a paper book content?

If you look at a paper book, you can look at its physical components: paper, glue, ink. What's intangible is, for instance, the overall order of the things you interpret as letter, which makes the "story". Another thing that would be intangible is the design, the patterns, how the artist decided to arrange stuff. You could, if you wanted, deconstruct the paper book, and cut each page letter by letter.

Same reasoning can be applied to a hard drive. It has physical material, and you could, physically (it's easier using a program that handles your computer because you'd need a lot of precision and some unique tools to mess with the hard drive region where your book is stored) mess with it and even destroy the material and separate magnetic grain per magnetic grain.
You could have a specially designed hard drive whose size fits perfectly the ebook, right?
Perhaps a difference is that one would want to interpret the binary data as something that you can read on a screen, but you wouldn't call a braille book that you read thanks to an interpreter an intangible thing, right?



About the misunderstanding thing, I'd usually agree with you but I made several attempts of conciliation and being reasonable before in this thread (well, that's what I feel), and on top of it I already had some discussions with him which very quickly veered the same way. I guess I must have some flaws aswell because it takes two to tango, but I have the impression I make extra efforts to aknowledge others' points, and I get nothing in return (I don't even ask him to agree, I just ask to adress the points I focus on, even if it's to disagree with them). Even if it's devoid of insult word, I don't think it's respectful.

And I don't expect much of people in general in the beginning (when they first post in a thread). I'm fairly forgiving and I don't expect people to read all the thread: I know that some people just quickly give their opinion on a subject and that's it. I do it, I don't expect everybody to read all the term and services for petty things they purchases (that cost next to nothing, like ten dollar an ebook?). Of course it's better to do it, no contest, but I don't expect it. But it is different when somebody engage with another in some kind of exchange. Then I expect some attention.

[issybird]

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[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Doonge

Yeah female sexuality is more "fluid" than male, typically.

Of course you can hold the ebook "holder", but that's the ebook isn't it? You could erase its content, as you could erase a paper book content?

If you look at a paper book, you can look at its physical components: paper, glue, ink. What's intangible is, for instance, the overall order of the things you interpret as letter, which makes the "story". Another thing that would be intangible is the design, the patterns, how the artist decided to arrange stuff. You could, if you wanted, deconstruct the paper book, and cut each page letter by letter.

Same reasoning can be applied to a hard drive. It has physical material, and you could, physically (it's easier using a program that handles your computer because you'd need a lot of precision and some unique tools to mess with the hard drive region where your book is stored) mess with it and even destroy the material and separate magnetic grain per magnetic grain.
You could have a specially designed hard drive whose size fits perfectly the ebook, right?
Perhaps a difference is that one would want to interpret the binary data as something that you can read on a screen, but you wouldn't call a braille book that you read thanks to an interpreter an intangible thing, right?



About the misunderstanding thing, I'd usually agree with you but I made several attempts of conciliation and being reasonable before in this thread (well, that's what I feel), and on top of it I already had some discussions with him which very quickly veered the same way. I guess I must have some flaws aswell because it takes two to tango, but I have the impression I make extra efforts to aknowledge others' points, and I get nothing in return (I don't even ask him to agree, I just ask to adress the points I focus on, even if it's to disagree with them). Even if it's devoid of insult word, I don't think it's respectful.

And I don't expect much of people in general in the beginning (when they first post in a thread). I'm fairly forgiving and I don't expect people to read all the thread: I know that some people just quickly give their opinion on a subject and that's it. I do it, I don't expect everybody to read all the term and services for petty things they purchases (that cost next to nothing, like ten dollar an ebook?). Of course it's better to do it, no contest, but I don't expect it. But it is different when somebody engage with another in some kind of exchange. Then I expect some attention.

Again, I can physically hold that braille book since I am assuming you cannot put braille on a computer.

Now as to the last part of your post: no $1.99 or $10 ebook is not much if you only buy one.
The catch is most users do not buy just one ebook from a big vendor.
As to Amazon, in both physical and digital stuff, I spent way more than $10 last year.
So yes, I should read the T&C because I do use Amazon. Heck just in the last month, I have spent more than $10.

[Doonge]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Again, I can physically hold that braille book since I am assuming you cannot put braille on a computer.

Now as to the last part of your post: no $1.99 or $10 ebook is not much if you only buy one.
The catch is most users do not buy just one ebook from a big vendor.
As to Amazon, in both physical and digital stuff, I spent way more than $10 last year.
So yes, I should read the T&C because I do use Amazon. Heck just in the last month, I have spent more than $10.

You can put any "bit" (memory part) to a state of "0" or "1" in your computer.
You can put in any "letter space" on a paper page some braille point in special arrangement.

A writer will make a story, which is intangible, but physically it will be put letter by letter on some paper sheet using ink. And all the paper pages will be put together using some thick cover and some glue. It could also be put physically on some magnetic grains on one single "page": a hard drive. You can hold the book by its cover, or by its pages, (beware), you can hold the ebook by its holder or you can touch the magnetic plate if you want (beware).

I don't really understand what you mean by putting braille on a computer. You mean a screen? Yes it would be possible to build a braille screen. No the data would not be stored in the hard drive in the braille alphabet (it's binary data, binary alphabet if you will).



Anyway, yeah if you buy a lot from one publisher, you'd want to read their T&C. But you could also buy from multiple publishers (T&C can differ). But their T&C could change with time aswell, and on top of it some T&C can be book-specific (some book can be free of right for instance). That can potentially be a lot of T&C, and perhaps you should check the T&C everytime you buy a book whether or not the T&C has changed (in the Amazon example given, you see the date it has been last updated).
Lastly, even if you read the T&C, you must evaluate what's valid in your country (some parts of a T&C can be against local legislation), and/or what you care about. For instance I've recently bought a book for my mother from Amazon because she asked me to as she had a coupon (she's a computer illiterate). I knew I could unDRM the Amazon book, convert it in epub and put it in her Kobo (I bought her one as it's the brand I bought for myself aswell). I did it. It's against their T&C. She wasn't even aware of the steps I took, she probably thought it was possible as is. I didn't bother to explain.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Well my view is that as a buyer I can use the ebook in any way I like consistent with the laws of the land, but as a licensee I am additionally subject to the conditions of the licence (provided those conditions are themselves lawful.)

Obviously the ebook retailers themselves see a difference, otherwise why would they put something like this in their terms and conditions?

Because if they sold you the contents you could legally republish it?
Seriously, IP *can* be sold as well as licensed.
Lots of cases, especially in the software world.

(One notable case revolves around the FALLOUT franchise where the creators sold the IP and then licensed back the rights to create a MMO version within a given window of time. When they failed to complete the MMO they lost that right and ended up with nothing.)

That is the reason why IP publishers only sell use licenses, even when distributed on physical media. To sell the IP proper puts them out of business. It's an all or nothing proposition.

It's not all that different from the service businesses where, again, the product is intangible and often ephemeral.

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You need the licence, because it grants you the rights you actually need to read the book. If you were governed purely by the law of the land, for example, then assuming that NZ copyright law is similar to that of the UK, you wouldn't be able to read the book because the act of transferring it from your PC to a reading device would be a breach of copyright (you're creating an extra copy of the book). The licence is what grants you that right. Eg, in Amazon's case the licence grants you the right to "view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times". Without that right, you couldn't copy it to any device other than the one on which you originally downloaded it.

Okay, so I wasn't able to put concicely everything I would expect to be ableto do with the book as a buyer.

But it is what an ordinary buyer is lead to believe by the sellers message that counts under consumer law, buyers are not expected to be lawyers or experts, and if there are limitations on the sale then the seller has an obligation to make those clear. If the seller leads the buyer to beleive that they will be able to read and transfer the ebook to their device, then it is reasonable for the buyer to expect that they will be able to do that when they buy the ebook. That doesn't mean that the buyer knows that they are only buying a licence.

If the licence contained no limitations at all then it would not be necessary for the seller to make the difference between buying and licensing clear. But if the licence contains limitations on the sale then the seller should make it clear that the buyer is only buying a licence, and the consumer laws say they should do that in a way that is clear and not easily overlooked. It is not enough to point to terms and conditions.

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Because if they sold you the contents you could legally republish it?
Seriously, IP *can* be sold as well as licensed.
Lots of cases, especially in the software world.

Then under consumer law the seller has an obligation to make that clear in their main message, not just include it in the terms and conditions.

Edit: What it all comes down to is that the terms and conditions are not allowed to contradict the main message. The main message is clearly about buying, with a big fat BUY button. But the terms and consitions contradict that when they say they are not actually selling, just licensing.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The World Intellectual Property Organisation (arbiters of the various international IP treaties) disagrees with you. From their website:



Note the "literary works" bit. A book is most assuredly IP, and the laws that govern IP, such as copyright law, define what you are and are not allowed to do with it. It's a lot more than just copy it. You can't, for example, give a public performance of it (eg stand on a street corner and read it out loud). You own the paper, ink, and glue and, as you say, you can do pretty much what you want with those. You have extremely limited rights when it comes to the actual contents of the book (that is, the "intellectual property"). With an ebook, there is no tangible object - no paper, ink, or glue - so intellectual property is all that you have. IP laws are therefore central to discussions of what can or can't be done with ebooks.

No, they don't disagree with me. You just said that I own the book, which is what I said. I don't own a license to read the book whenever the copyright owner wants to let me, I own the book and can read it whenever and where ever I wish. I own the ebook as well.

Giving a public performance is mentioned explicitly as a derivative work.

Once again, I point out that US law is different than European law which is different than Chinese law which is different than Russian law.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

No, they don't disagree with me. You just said that I own the book, which is what I said. I don't own a license to read the book whenever the copyright owner wants to let me, I own the book and can read it whenever and where ever I wish. I own the ebook as well.

Giving a public performance is mentioned explicitly as a derivative work.

Once again, I point out that US law is different than European law which is different than Chinese law which is different than Russian law.

Bolded this says it all.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Then under consumer law the seller has an obgation to make that clear in their main message, not just include it in the terms and conditions.

Edit: What it all comes down to is that the terms and conditions are not allowed to contradict the main message. The main message is clearly about buying, with a big fat BUY button. But the terms and consitions contradict that when they say they are not actually selling, just licensing.

Terms and conditions, especially click through terms and condidtions is a very nebulous area. One of the basic tenets of contract law is that you can't have a contract without mutual agreement on the terms. Some judges have upheld terms and conditions, others have tossed them.