EU vice-president: Copyright legislation is “pushing people to steal”

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by darryl

However, the context is that of impoverished people in undeveloped and developing nations, who are relied upon by some to justify geographic restrictions. My point is that these people are not in fact catered for by Publishers with prices low enough for them to afford. Publishers in fact appear only to cater for the more affluent middle classes in these countries. If the truly impoverished in these nations wish to read they have little option but piracy. For you to class these people as dishonest and not to be trusted is certainly not indefensible, but in the context is probably neither appropriate nor relevant.

Reading has always been a "middle class" activity. People who are working 16h a day to earn $2 on which to feed their family probably have neither the leisure time nor the money to be able to buy books, and neither are they likely to own an ebook reader or a smartphone on which to read the books that you suggest they are pirating.

[murg]

Originally Posted by ApK

Sometimes I wish we could give negative karma to a post.

I know exactly what you mean...

[darryl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Reading has always been a "middle class" activity. People who are working 16h a day to earn $2 on which to feed their family probably have neither the leisure time nor the money to be able to buy books, and neither are they likely to own an ebook reader or a smartphone on which to read the books that you suggest they are pirating.

Very true. Therefore, the suggestion that the system of regional rights is in fact a charitable endeavour to enable Publishers to make books affordable to the impoverished masses of the third world is exposed for the nonsense that it is.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

If I would do that, I'd never been able to buy a Dutch book. We've a fixed bookprice. I don't know any better than that the publisher sets the price.

For me, it's not so much the price but rather the fact that I simply am not allowed to buy at all. If I want to read a book, I'm willing to pay the price asked. If I can buy it somewhere.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else should emulate what I am doing. Every time I am reminded of the fixed price book system I am quite simply amazed by it. Perhaps there are cultural aspects that, not being a European, I do not understand. To me, it seems to penalise consumers on the flimsiest of pretixts.

For me also it is not about price, though price does play a role. One might look on agency pricing as an attempt to bring a fixed book price to the whole world. The only saving grace seems to be that indie publishing is increasingly providing competition to traditional publishers, and perhaps moderating some of their worst behaviour. Publishers should have no place in setting retail prices.

And I can't think of any good reason for denying you the right to purchase a book you want just because you happen to live in a particular region.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And I will note that you claimed that even without a statutory license (e.g. books) the rights-holder still cannot withdraw their product from the market???

They can't. Once they've sold the books, they are sold. The used book market is allowed to resell them indefinitely.

Greg

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Good point, the equivalents around the world of the Net Book Agreement (Government mandated terms where the list price either can't be discounted or discounted only by a small percent only).
Theoretically, at least, by popular demand of the people (technically the government works for the people, although it more and more appears the other way around) to keep small/local booksellers in business.

Ending geo-restrictions would actually be illegal in these countries as it would contravene these laws if anyone could sell cross-border at any price they chose.

Technology happens and laws need to change. You have to look at the intent of those laws. I can't believe there is popular demand to have to travel to a local bookstore to download an ebook at the same price as a paper book.

I believe that there is a growing understanding/realization that geo-restrictions are just discrimination based on address and not OK. The people in countries that are paying lower prices don't seem to see a problem with it, the people in countries that are paying higher prices don't seem to have a problem with circumventing the geo-restrictions.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

As has already been stated several times in this thread, regional distribution contracts are primarily down to the choices made by authors, not publishers. If an author sells ebook rights to the UK only to a publisher, then that publisher would be breaking their contact if they offered the book to customers outside the UK. You're blaming the publisher for something that they have no control over.

And as has been stated in many other threads it is the publisher that refuse to pay more for world rights so authors are kind of forced to sell to different regions. So really it is the publishers that is to blame.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by tompe

And as has been stated in many other threads it is the publisher that refuse to pay more for world rights so authors are kind of forced to sell to different regions. So really it is the publishers that is to blame.

Right, so the soloution is for the publisher to pay for world rights?

This will, of course, mean that the publisher will have the sole rights to produce paper books in regions where they have no capacity to produce/promote them and it is unlikely they will be able to sub contract paper only rights to these areas. So we will fix the global ebook market at the expense of the paper market.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Right, so the soloution is for the publisher to pay for world rights?

This will, of course, mean that the publisher will have the sole rights to produce paper books in regions where they have no capacity to produce/promote them and it is unlikely they will be able to sub contract paper only rights to these areas. So we will fix the global ebook market at the expense of the paper market.

The future of of paper books, at least fiction, is mostly print on demand.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by ingmar

Well, not necessarily. Copyright is by no means god-given, it is, on the contrary, a legally sanctioned monopoly granted by the state. It can be modified at any time. It is, in fact, every few years.

That may well be so, in which case I will happily admit that rights-holders are no longer allowed to retract their product from the market.

Nevertheless, at this time what I said stands.

Amazon.us still wouldn't sell (ebooks) to me: why should they, when they can levy a 40% (or so) "European" tax on amazon.{co.uk|de|it|*} ?

Because the government would tell you to use a VPN. It has already happened in some places.

Or better yet, bring suit against the company for discrimination.

That's a valid point, but we have just such an exception for out-of-print books. You must not make copies of whole books (from a library, presumably) -- unless that book is out of print) [1]. I have no problems with just such an exceptions for ebooks as well. That said, it could be further clarified to only allow such copies if they are to be legally had in other markets.

[1] Or you copy it by hand. I kid you not.

So you're saying if a rights-holder pulls their book from the market, it is legal to pirate the pbook edition... but not the ebook.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

On the contrary, this happens all the time. The overwhelming majority of TV programmes, to name but one example, are only available in their country of broadcast. A rights-holder has the absolute right to control distribution in any way they wish, unless it would conflict with local laws (eg be discriminatory to certain groups).

Like I said. Digital media.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by gweeks

They can't. Once they've sold the books, they are sold. The used book market is allowed to resell them indefinitely.

Greg

But we are talking about the new book market.
I have already raised the issue of people mendaciously misinterpreting me to be referring to already-sold books. That has nothing to do with refuing to sell -- to anyone.

[ingmar]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Ending geo-restrictions would actually be illegal in these countries as it would contravene these laws if anyone could sell cross-border at any price they chose.

Not so. While individual states may enforce local minimum price laws in regards to books, they really can't do that when being sold from another state. This is a small problem with physical books, but an issue nevertheless (German books are sold to Hungary, say, at a discount and then re-imported). The "price fixing laws" only applies to in-country brick-and-mortar stores and online retailers.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

So you're saying if a rights-holder pulls their book from the market, it is legal to pirate the pbook edition... but not the ebook.

A bit drastic, perhaps, but that's what it boils down to, yes.

[Barcey]

We had a related issue in Canada where the president of Bell Media claimed that Canadians that were using VPN to pay for access to Netflix in the USA were stealing.

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/06/s...-is-not-theft/

It amazes me that companies think they own who I can buy media from and it's stealing if I don't buy from them. Sorry I didn't sell them my consumer choice. I haven't seen anything in the copyright laws that states that content providers own the rights to me as a consumer and they can sell these rights.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Barcey

The people in countries that are paying lower prices don't seem to see a problem with it . . .

Here is a message for them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20

Consider:

http://blog.rishab.in/low-price-edit...ndian-kindles/

The device may seem expensive, but if it costs less to buy a Kindle edition, the device will pay for itself. Furthermore, if you have attempted to read The Lord Of The Rings in the Delhi metro without using a Kindle, you would appreciate its advantage. . . . With the new pricing of the Amazon Kindle Store for India, I find myself looking for Kindle alternatives to every book I want.