David Nicholls: Browsing bookshops then buying online is a 'genteel form of shoplifti

[Turtle91]

As I said earlier, it would have to be a rare case for me to buy a pBook. Not because I don't like them, but because I ran out of room for bookshelves on my walls...

I enjoy walking through a book store and seeing what's new...I usually grab a drink at their in-house drinkery, see what is new on the shelves (books, calenders, puzzles, games), say hi to the clerks, say "no thanks I'm just browsing" to anyone who asks if I need help, but mainly get an idea for what has been printed....I often get very tired of searching through the chaff that is the majority of amazon's online books (no offense to authors - but there is a tremendous amount of poorly written, poorly edited "books" available online that have received great reviews...) just to find a decent book to read. A published pBook has at least gone through the wickets and has a BETTER chance of being a decent read...

Occasionally I'll buy something that I saw while browsing - just not the books.

Here's the thing. The B&M bookstores I frequent rarely have an ebook option.... or, if they do, it is not a pleasant experience. (DRM, walled garden, must use our crappy hardware, etc)

If I were a B&M bookstore, I would provide a very pleasant experience for browsers....I'd WANT them to come into my store... I wouldn't need a ton of inventory, just enough to keep up with actual hard-copy sales... and I would make it incredibly easy for the individual to get an ebook of that pbook he just pawed through....scan this barcode, select your format, done... and if they needed to side load it onto their device, why look - here is a cable with every size and shape connection....

That is called being responsive to the market, and adapting to meet customer's needs.

If they did that...darn straight I would buy from them!

[twowheels]

Originally Posted by Geralt

Who said you are strictly shopping for ebooks???
Bookstores and restaurants cant really compare. As you said, you cant go inside a restaurant to browse around. You can go inside a bookstore to browse.
Two different business models, you can't compare. Or you can, but it just isn't very convincing.

I dunno... I've walked into restaurants, asked for a menu, asked if they have any vegetarian options, asked to walk over and see their salad bar, thought about it for a while, and then left to go to another one. :-) [OK, not really disagreeing with you]

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Spoiler:

Customer browsing has always been part of book selling. And accomodating that is part of the cost of doing business.
A good part of the success of the chain stores back in their day was due precisely to their openness to browsing and the accomodations they provided.

In more recent times, Amazon has prospered because *they* make browsing even more convenient and efficient online. Especially by eliminating the prospect of going to the trouble of a long drive to a B&M site only to find nothing worth buying.

The plain fact is anybody willing to buy online is already aware that B&M "cannot possibly" compete with Amazon in catalog size and price (the ADSers repeat it constantly and loudly enough). The only people who actually bother to enter a bookstore these days are the ones interested in buying *local* in the first place. They are giving them first crack at their business.
If they walk out emptyhanded it isn't because of any ethical failing on their behalf but rather because the bookstore failed to close the deal. The failure is on them, not on the customer. Because anybody who had no interest in buying wouldn't waste lifespan in a bookstore.

The crucial misunderstanding here is the myth that B&M browsing is somehow magically better and more efficient than online browsing.

News alert, Mr Nicholls: it isn't.

The only thing B&M book selling is better at is forcing customers to walk past tables of payola-supported titles. And that by itself is reason enough to go shop online, where the store operator is focused on helping the shopper find the book they want instead of making them buy the books they're bring paid to promote.

Completely agree with you, you make some good points.

Originally Posted by tompe

Nearly all people I would say. People at this forum are people that read a lot of books and read about books so they do not need expert help. Other will need it if they want to optimize the selection process.

Nearly nobody at all I would say. The casual reader shops in two manners.
They enter a bookshop and buy whatever catches their eye, usually popular or heavily displayed titles.
OR
They see what their friends, cousins, or somebody they like reads and they go and buy that.
A casual reader to me is somebody who doesn't read more than 5 books a year.

No need to optimize anything because they aren't so invested into reading anyway. If anything it's always the people who read a lot worrying about choosing that next 5 star book.

Books are not golf clubs people. A casual reader will buy a book, read a book, and forget about it in little while. They won't go on using it for ages.
You make a bad example comparing these things.

Originally Posted by RobertDDL

I thought this was what this discussion is about?

Last time I checked people bought paper books in online shops as well.

[JSWolf]

When you buy a new car, you go to a dealer and test drive. Then you haggle on price. You don't then buy then and there. You go elsewhere to see what sort of price you can get from other dealers. Then you buy from the dealer that offers the best deal/price.

Is it really any different than going into one shop, looking at something and then buying it where you get the lowest price? Nope, same thing. The car buying is not stealing or unethical and neither should buying other items. The only real difference is the price. A book costs a lot less than a car.

So who here would go to a car dealer and buy a new car without getting other prices?

[Geralt]

Honestly just the idea that a person, with lets say a kindle, who wants to buy a book, would go to a bookshop, would bother a salesperson, would flip through a paper book, only to come back home and buy a kindle version from amazon is ridiculously stupid!
Why would anyone in their right mind do all that, when they can download the sample of the kindle version with no expenses, which often includes not only all the information they could possibly need, but often a few pages or even a chapter they can read before deciding to buy.

[murg]

Originally Posted by Geralt

Honestly just the idea that a person, with lets say a kindle, who wants to buy a book, would go to a bookshop, would bother a salesperson, would flip through a paper book, only to come back home and buy a kindle version from amazon is ridiculously stupid!
Why would anyone in their right mind do all that, when they can download the sample of the kindle version with no expenses, which often includes not only all the information they could possibly need, but often a few pages or even a chapter they can read before deciding to buy.

Say our hypothetical unethical person (or HUP) wants to get an idea of what to read next, but there are just soooooo many books on Amazon.

Goes to B&M bookstore, chats up the staff, gets recommendations.

Goes to the local coffee shop right next to the B&M store (maybe even inside of it), and orders/previews the books on Kindle that were recommended.

[Geralt]

In that scenario HUP has no clear idea of what he wants. When you get an indecisive person like that, it's nobody's fault but the sales person of letting the HUP walk out of the store without buying at least something. It's much easier to talk somebody into buying a book if he basically doesn't know much, than it is to talk somebody into buying when they have preconceived notions and a made up mind regarding anything.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by murg

Say our hypothetical unethical person (or HUP) wants to get an idea of what to read next, but there are just soooooo many books on Amazon.

Ah, the old "online bookstores have too many books to find anything" myth.
Thing is, good online stores have filtering. By book type, genre, sub-genre, and even review ratings. They even let you filter all but the new releases or sort by popularity or price.

No need to waste time randomly browsing.
Back in the day when there actually was a chain bookstore near me, I would go past the magazine's and CDs and the coffee shop and most of the 50,000 books at Borders to go straight to the SF shelves. As a regular, I knew where they were. They usually carried about 1-2000 SF books. The other 48,000 were of no interest to me so all I had to do was scan by eyeball for any title that sounded interesting.

Online, I can do the same thing with two clicks: "fiction" and "science fiction" and suddenly 37.5 million titles becomes just 320,000. Click on, say, "Kindle edition" and it's cut down some more. I pick "Space Opera" and "New" and I'm looking at all the new ebooks I might actually be interested in, not a politician's ghost-written memoir/screed or the latest book mill product or tough guy shoot-em up.

The same would happen if I were looking for historical fiction, paranormal romance, epic fantasy, tough guy shoot-em ups, or even litfic. I only see what I want to see, not what the bookseller can afford go carry or is paid to promote.

So 30 million deep book catalogs are not a problem to people who shop at good online stores.(HC.com so far, is not, though. Filtering doesn't work well there. It is bad enough to drive would be buyers away. But not to B&M.)

These I don't waste time and gasoline driving to a bookstore that may or not have something that might interest me. Which, back in the day, only happened about one in four times I went to Borders. And I used to go about twice a month.

After Borders ran themselves into bankruptcy and I was only left with online, I started saving a lot of gasoline.

B&M bookstores have bigger problems than the mythical "showrooms" non-buyer.
Like getting people to bother going to the store in the first place.
Just look at B&N' s annual post-holiday season financials and the usual talk of low traffic.

[Barcey]

He was just pandering to the audience. The book sellers aren't debating the ethics of charging me the same price when I already knew what I was going to buy when I walked in the store. Isn't that stealing or at least unethical?

They charge everyone the same because charging for perceived incremental services doesn't work. "Let's see that will be $20 for the book, $14 for the 16 minutes of my sales persons time, $85 for my cleaning staff to clean up your kids gummie bear goober and $0.25 for the toilet services. Will that be cash? Heh, where are you going? THIEF!"

[meeera]

I'm mostly just amazed that any regular ebook reader is short of a book to read next. I have hundreds of great books in my TBR, and it's only that few because I've exercised restraint. You only have to have the slightest contact with communities of literary folks to be deluged with excellent recommendations.

My problem has never been finding a good book amongst the gazillions at Amazon; it's figuring out which one of the books I already own to read next, and how to have enough money to support my habit.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by meeera

My problem has never been finding a good book amongst the gazillions at Amazon; it's figuring out which one of the books I already own to read next, and how to have enough money to support my habit.

This.
Plus, since I reread, there is the quandary of checking out a book I bought but haven't read yet or revisiting a known good work from decades past. Like, do I check out Larry Correia to see if he's as fun as (equally non-PC) John Ringo or do I see how Chad Oliver (pre-PC anthropology SF) holds up after a couple decades?

[voracious71]

It isn't shoplifting, it's smart shopping. I still go into my local B&N to unwind after work, or I take my niece there( trying to cultivate a love of books and reading, and it's working).

I do still buy paper books on occasion, but I admit, I have seen an interesting book at the store and checked Amazon for it(often while still in the store). At any rate, I always leave having spent money there, either in the cafe, the kid's section, or for a book for me(rare, but it happens). I do have a Nook and every now and then I will buy an ebook from them but usually I buy from Amazon.

At any rate, Pbooks aren't going anywhere. Still see plenty of them on the train going to work each day. If the stores want business, they have to be competitive.

[ebusinesstutor]

I sometimes go into a local Chapters which does also sell online. But it isn't easy to buy online. I think local bookstores should let you scan a barcode on a book to buy it right on the spot if you want the ebook version.

Price is definitely a factor when shopping around. One reference book I wanted cost $24 in the local Chapters, but only $16 from Amazon (including shipping) and $9 on Kindle. So why would I pay an extra 50% to buy it locally.

Yes, I understand that local book stores may eventually close if I buy online, but when you are on a budget, that extra 50% works out to a lot more books over time.

I don't go into local book stores specifically intending to shop online, but I do check prices. If the price is within the ball park, I will buy it at the book store I am in because I get instant gratification. But if I am paying 25% or more too much, I buy online.

Most times, I start my shopping online, rather than local because of the extra selection.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Ah, the old "online bookstores have too many books to find anything" myth.
Thing is, good online stores have filtering. By book type, genre, sub-genre, and even review ratings. They even let you filter all but the new releases or sort by popularity or price.
...
Online, I can do the same thing with two clicks: "fiction" and "science fiction" and suddenly 37.5 million titles becomes just 320,000. Click on, say, "Kindle edition" and it's cut down some more. I pick "Space Opera" and "New" and I'm looking at all the new ebooks I might actually be interested in, not a politician's ghost-written memoir/screed or the latest book mill product or tough guy shoot-em up.

The last time I clicked on New / Science Fiction & Fantasy at Amazon...95% of the books are about two animal/men who want to get it on with a single female from Earth...

Filters are only as good as the tags that the author/publisher puts in there...and recommendations...well that's a whole 'nother topic!

BTW, I have been writing to Amazon several times over the last 1.5 years to get them to fix their "advanced search" function. It is STILL broken. When you enter the categories you wish to search (ie SF&F/New/Printed Books/ Published this month) and click search - you get a list as you would expect...but as soon as you click the "next page" the filter for printed books disappears. It appears that Amazon is intentionally throwing all of their extra Kindle/ebook product at you regardless of your desires. It seriously does take alot longer to browse through 4000 books online than to walk through my local B&M store while my wife is at the hair dresser next door...

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

The last time I clicked on New / Science Fiction & Fantasy at Amazon...95% of the books are about two animal/men who want to get it on with a single female from Earth...

What you are referring to is called paranormal romance. I consider those books trite and cliché personally. I don't think they represent sci-fi and fantasy genre in positive light. No offense to anyone that thinks those are the best books ever.
Amazon has a lot of those really low quality really bad self published titles, I agree.

If you want to read really amazing fantasy go to www.bestfantasybooks.com and start with Top 25 best fantasy books for recommendations.
Alternatively check out any of the 100+ lists with more particular criterions like sub genre lists and more.
I started reading fantasy few years ago and that site has made me fall in love with the genre with their awesome recommendations.