My perspective on buying books with DRM

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Surely that means it isn't, after all, a matter of you being treated like a thief... which IIRC was your original complaint.

I quite understand ugly watermarks being annoying, but it isn't a moral issue...

It both of this stuff actually. Being treated like a thief, and the fact I don't get a proper product and have to use use sigil to remove the watermark.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

It both of this stuff actually. Being treated like a thief, and the fact I don't get a proper product and have to use use sigil to remove the watermark.

Sorry -- for a minute there I had thought you had an actual rational complaint. I should have known it was too good to be true.

See all the explanations above about the difference between accusing each individual customer of dishonesty, and simply acknowledging that theft does occur in a certain percentage of people -- and the need to protect one's business interests against that potential.

I cannot imagine why anyone without a guilty conscience would be bothered by that.

[EowynCarter]

So we should just accept anything?
Sorry but I don't expect to have to prove my honesty when I want to buy something.
Innocent until proven guilty, don't the that seams familiar?
Just like when you enter a shop and they insist you shouldn't take your bag in.

As a customer, others stealing isn't my problem. I never said no one stole. I just don't care. I shouldn't suffer any consequences of others actions. I shouldn't see my product's quality affected by that, or my shopping experience.

I'm no thief, I don't expect to be treated so until I've actually done something to deserve that.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

So we should just accept anything?
Sorry but I don't expect to have to prove my honesty when I want to buy something.
Innocent until proven guilty, don't the that seams familiar?
Just like when you enter a shop and they insist you shouldn't take your bag in.

As a customer, others stealing isn't my problem. I never said no one stole. I just don't care. I shouldn't suffer any consequences of others actions. I shouldn't see my product's quality affected by that, or my shopping experience.

I'm no thief, I don't expect to be treated so until I've actually done something to deserve that.

Every piece of electronic kit I've bought has a serial number on it, how are watermarks any different?

[Geralt]

My policy is very simple. If I can remove the DRM I will buy it, if I can't remove it or if it's too complicated to do so I won't.
Which is why I buy at amazon and kobo, but I don't buy at apple.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Every piece of electronic kit I've bought has a serial number on it, how are watermarks any different?

1) A serial number is just a sequencing of numbers used to track manufacturing information. We don't know what information is included in watermarks.

2) The serial number is only registered to me if I register the product (opt in). Consider why some people have a problem with mandatory gun registries.

3) The purpose is different. If my electronic device is stolen from me and sold in a flea market, the serial number isn't going to be used to litigate against me for being careless with their product.

4) The intent is different.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Every piece of electronic kit I've bought has a serial number on it, how are watermarks any different?

That the serial number can't be traced to you in most cases.

And nevermind, Barcey said it all.

[murg]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

That the serial number can't be traced to you in most cases.

Unless you are a suspect on a TV show. Then the serial number can always be traced back to you.

[ottdmk]

I consider watermarking to be a good compromise DRM. Is it ideal? No, of course not. No DRM scheme is. However, I'll trade traceability for ease of use any day. Not to mention the added bonus of being able to move my library around without technically breaking the law.

Still though, I continue to hold out hope that the larger publishers will eventually come to the same conclusion as the recording companies: all DRM does is inconvenience their customers, and is hence pointless. (Tor's research may help a fair bit.)

[pdurrant]

I don't mind watermarking, but if the publisher/retailer is going to go to the trouble of making a special copy just for me, they could at least add an attractive Ex Libris page as well, so that it's easier for me to keep track of where and when I bought the book (& perhaps how much I paid!).

A pretty facsimile of the author's signature on the page would be good too.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

So we should just accept anything?
Sorry but I don't expect to have to prove my honesty when I want to buy something.
Innocent until proven guilty, don't the that seams familiar?
Just like when you enter a shop and they insist you shouldn't take your bag in.

As a customer, others stealing isn't my problem. I never said no one stole. I just don't care. I shouldn't suffer any consequences of others actions. I shouldn't see my product's quality affected by that, or my shopping experience.

I'm no thief, I don't expect to be treated so until I've actually done something to deserve that.

You have a very odd definition of "everything". And I maintain that product vendors of all types, e/book or otherwise, have every right to take reasonable precautions that assume anyone *can* be a thief.

No one is assuming you *are* a thief, if that were true, you'd've been dragged off to jail on the off chance you are stealing books.

People are assuming you *can* be a thief, because... it is true.

Anyone *can* be a thief. This very simple fact underlies a great deal of the way the world works.

Take that serial number.
It can certainly be used to uniquely identify an object.

That object may or may not have been purchased with an account traceable to you.

Solution: if you are one of the paranoid nuts who obsesses about your secrecy, we get them all the time and I am totally all right with that, just so long as you are honest about it. Nothing wrong with someone living up to their values.
Some people have good reasons, e.g. living in oppressive countries. Also, I hope you uphold that mandate of privacy in all areas of your digital life -- for example, do you browse using the Tor network? Do you use full-disk encryption on your computer? Do you encrypt all your email?

Use non-identifying information to create your ebookstore account, and you cannot be traced.

@pdurrant, yep I think we discussed this already, re: Harry Potter. I had to edit my copy to suit.

[murg]

I'm waiting for a murder victim to be identified by the watermarking of an ebook on their phone in a TV cop show...

[RobertDDL]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

if you are one of the paranoid nuts who obsesses about your secrecy

Could we please disagree on certain subjects without reverting to personal insults of the "paranoid nuts" kind?

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

You have a very odd definition of "everything". And I maintain that product vendors of all types, e/book or otherwise, have every right to take reasonable precautions that assume anyone *can* be a thief.

No one is assuming you *are* a thief, if that were true, you'd've been dragged off to jail on the off chance you are stealing books.

People are assuming you *can* be a thief, because... it is true.

Anyone *can* be a thief. This very simple fact underlies a great deal of the way the world works.

Take that serial number.
It can certainly be used to uniquely identify an object.

That object may or may not have been purchased with an account traceable to you.

Solution: if you are one of the paranoid nuts who obsesses about your secrecy, we get them all the time and I am totally all right with that, just so long as you are honest about it. Nothing wrong with someone living up to their values.
Some people have good reasons, e.g. living in oppressive countries. Also, I hope you uphold that mandate of privacy in all areas of your digital life -- for example, do you browse using the Tor network? Do you use full-disk encryption on your computer? Do you encrypt all your email?

Use non-identifying information to create your ebookstore account, and you cannot be traced.

@pdurrant, yep I think we discussed this already, re: Harry Potter. I had to edit my copy to suit.

You got it all wrong. I don't care about being possibility traced (the probability of that begin close to zero).
It's that watermarks, like adept protected book, reduce the value of the book for me. Even more, alf make it easier to remove adept protection than watermark.
It's that I have some lesser quality product because of some idiots. I don't want the usage of the product I paid for to be alerted / restricted

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

You got it all wrong. I don't care about being possibility traced (the probability of that begin close to zero).
It's that watermarks, like adept protected book, reduce the value of the book for me. Even more, alf make it easier to remove adept protection than watermark.
It's that I have some lesser quality product because of some idiots. I don't want the usage of the product I paid for to be alerted / restricted

Watermarks in music files I abhor, because even if the watermark is 'inaudible', it's still a change to the produce as used.

Watermarks in ebooks should not changed the displayed text. They are supposed to be entirely in the non-displayed coding of the book.

Although, as mentioned before, I'd be pleased to have a pretty 'Ex-Libris' visible 'watermark' page as well.