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Old 02-09-2014, 01:45 PM   #91
Tizzalicious
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Originally Posted by Iskariot View Post

b. I quickly discovered that the original english (and german) versions of books were a lot cheaper than the dutch translations. And I mean a lot! I would pay 50 Gulden (old currency) for a translated version of Wingrove's Chung Kuo books, but when I ordered it abroad it would cost me no more than 17, perhaps 20 Gulden, including shipping and handling.
I always supposed that this huge difference in price could be explained by the fact that there are many more english language speakers than there are dutch language speakers.
Where di you buy those though? Because in a normal bookstore English books were definitely more expensive!
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:47 PM   #92
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Many people never re-read books, so it's not at all "ridiculous" for them.
Though with a paper book, even if you can't reread, you can at least let a friend read it, give it away, etc, so chances are it gets read more than once anyway.
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:57 PM   #93
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Where di you buy those though? Because in a normal bookstore English books were definitely more expensive!
English books were more expensive if you ordered them in a normal bookstore.

Buying at Amazon.co.uk, and bundling 10 or so of them to save shipping, would be a lot cheaper.

In the Netherlands buying online only started to take off around 2000 for the more tech-savvy people, and 2002-2003 for "normal" people. All those people had to get their books in normal stores.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:00 PM   #94
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I always bought them at play.com, free shipping! But like I said, I hate reading translations. People who don't care so much wouldn't go through the trouble (especially before we had internet shopping) and just read in Dutch instead.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:10 PM   #95
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Where di you buy those though? Because in a normal bookstore English books were definitely more expensive!
I just ordered them from my local bookstore.

The paperback price was generally around 8 or 9 dollars. Including shipping and handling this translated to approximately 17 to 20 gulden.
I never bought dutch translations of english books again, as you can imagine.

There might of course have been a significant difference in price between hardcover and paperback though. But I was never prepared to pay harcover prices for fiction anyway.

EDIT:
Oh... and I went to the American Bookstore and W.H. Smith in Amsterdam on a regular basis. Always came home with a bag of books. Great scifi mostly.

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Old 02-09-2014, 02:21 PM   #96
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The EU Court of Justice has just ruled on this issue per this other thread here:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=233365

It appears DRM removal is fine as long as it does not result in sharing a file with anyone else.

If you do it for backup, that is alright. If you loan the stripped file to your brother, you have violated the law. Of course, this just applies to Europe, not the US, Asia or any other location.
It has always been like this in the Netherlands.

Dutch law specifically states that you are have the right (which, IMHO, is even a step further than just being allowed) to created as many copies as you want for personal use and backup purposes.

This implies that you also must have the right to circumvent copy protections, or you wouldn't be able to exercise the right to create a copy for personal use or backup. (I do not know on the top of my head what Dutch law states about this, but I'm pretty sure it says something similar to the ruling linked above.)

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If authorities inspected someone's PC for totally unrelated reasons and found recently dated files without the proper serial numbers, than an example could be made of that person if he could not explain the reasons for it....
What you are saying is this:

- A person is suspected of crime X, and authorities are searching for evidence toward that crime.
- Damn. We can't find any. But hey... We found some e-books, for which that person has no e-mail receipt. Great! If we can't bust him for crime X, then we just charge him with the crime of stealing e-books!

As far as I know, that is not allowed, but IANAL.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:26 PM   #97
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It has always been like this in the Netherlands.

Dutch law specifically states that you are have the right (which, IMHO, is even a step further than just being allowed) to created as many copies as you want for personal use and backup purposes.

This implies that you also must have the right to circumvent copy protections, or you wouldn't be able to exercise the right to create a copy for personal use or backup.
I wouldn't bet on that being the case. In the US, for example, Real Networks were banned from selling their DVD Backup program because the judge in the case ruled that having the right to make a backup did NOT grant the right to circumvent DRM in order to do so.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:28 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Tizzalicious View Post
Though with a paper book, even if you can't reread, you can at least let a friend read it, give it away, etc, so chances are it gets read more than once anyway.
True, but it still doesn't mean that paying €18 to read 20 new books is "ridiculous", IMHO.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:51 PM   #99
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I wouldn't bet on that being the case. In the US, for example, Real Networks were banned from selling their DVD Backup program because the judge in the case ruled that having the right to make a backup did NOT grant the right to circumvent DRM in order to do so.
I've looked it up. It's not clear, with regard to e-books.

With regard to copying media:
- Yes, you have the right to create copies of any media for own use and backup.
- You don't have that right with regard to books.

Eh. Is an e-book a "book", or is it "media"? Actually, some say they're a "software service".

They DON'T follow the "minimum book price" used in the Netherlands. They DON'T get the low VAT (6%), because these "books" are not paper books. However, they also DON'T seem follow some of the rules/definitions required to be clearly marked as a software service.

So, what is an e-book, really? Not yet officially determined. If it is a book, it may not officially be copied. (Will that preclude backups as well? And putting it onto an e-reader is making a copy as well, isn't it?) If it's not a book but a file akin to an MP3 file, it may be copied. If it's a software service, they'd fall under software copyright, which is completely different (downloading not allowed, copying not allowed).

Confusion.

With regard to removing copy protection:
- No, you are NOT allowed to remove it, not even to make copies for personal use.
- But, that is only the case if a copy protection is deemed to be effective. If it is deemed as not being effective, it may be removed.

Is an e-book DRM effective? Not determined yet.

The only ruling that comes close is with regard to DeCSS for DVD's. A Finnish court ruled that the DeCSS tools and software that uses them are so easily obtainable, and so easy to use, that DeCSS can be classified as "not effective". Removing it is allowed.

I suspect that if there ever is a ruling, the availability and ease-of-use of the Alf tools will mark current e-book DRM as not effective, and thus it may be removed. (It's as easy to use Alf through Calibre as it is to use DeCSS through any number of DVD-rippers.)

(This seems to state that as long as a copy protection isn't cracked, it's effective, and it may not be removed. As soon as it's cracked and removal can be easily done, it can be removed because it's not effective anymore.)

Sticky...

===

In the end, at this point in time, it comes down to this, at least in the Netherlands: If you don't upload or distribute any files, nobody cares a fracking peanut what you're doing.

If they did, it would be unenforcable; would you send the police to random houses to check on people if they hae removed DRM form their media or e-books? I don't see it happening.

Last edited by Katsunami; 02-09-2014 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:56 PM   #100
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Happens all the time in the USA

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Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
What you are saying is this:

- A person is suspected of crime X, and authorities are searching for evidence toward that crime.
- Damn. We can't find any. But hey... We found some e-books, for which that person has no e-mail receipt. Great! If we can't bust him for crime X, then we just charge him with the crime of stealing e-books!

As far as I know, that is not allowed, but IANAL.
It happens all the time that way in America. Folks are stopped for speeding on the highway. Illegal drugs are found in their cars and they get sent to prison for 10 years.

Other folks have their PC's confiscated for a suspected tax evasion violation. Pornography is found on their hard disks and they only get prosecuted for the possession of pornography.

I am pretty sure that the Amazon insertion of those 9 digit numbers in the metadata of the song files has something to do with similar enforcement actions at some time in the future. That practice definitely points to a similar process for eBooks sometime in the future.

Its obvious that the Alf plugin for Calibre has made the present DRM scheme OBSOLETE.

By the way, US laws are not affected by the European Court of Justice opinion.

Last edited by sirmaru; 02-09-2014 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 02-09-2014, 03:02 PM   #101
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It happens all the time that way in America. Folks are stopped for speeding on the highway. Illegal drugs are found in their cars and they get sent to prison for 10 years.

Other folks have their PC's confiscated for a suspected tax evasion violation. Pornography is found on their hard disks and they only get prosecuted for the possession of pornography.
This can happen in The Netherlands as well, but there are rules with regard to situations like these. I suspect that it's allowed to bust someone for driving without a license when stopped for speeding, because the fact that one doens't have a license becomes quite clear automatically. So, one tresspass (not having a license) very obviously follows on the heels of another (being stopped for speeding).

AFAIK, it's not allowed to go "ferretting" for "other crimes" if you fail to find the evidence for the crime you are investigating; like: "We can't find X anywhere, let's go see if we can find something else on the computer or in the house to bust this guy with." It's called "onrechtmatig verkregen bewijs". ("Unlawfully obtained evidence.")

However, as I said, IANAL. I don't know the finer points of all of these rules.

Last edited by Katsunami; 02-09-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:27 PM   #102
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Its obvious that the Alf plugin for Calibre has made the present DRM scheme OBSOLETE.
If everyone used Calibre, perhaps. However, I' wager that the vast majority of ebook buyers do not use it, nor have even heard of it.

DRM in general is obsolete. It is pointless and wastes everyone's time and money.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:01 AM   #103
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It appears DRM removal is fine as long as it does not result in sharing a file with anyone else.

If you do it for backup, that is alright. If you loan the stripped file to your brother, you have violated the law.
My mother wanted to buy an e-book. It was infected with DRM. I told her not to buy it as I simply cannot explain via chat and email how she would have had to put the book on her ereader. I did install Calibre for her on her laptop and did explain how she could transfer files from there to her device. (no de-drm plugin available at the time). So, I bought the book, I sent her the cleaned file, she put it in her Calibre and from there to her Sony. I also put a copy in my Calibre as that is her backup. (thankfully, for her, because she thought she was smart this weekend, cleaning up her laptop and deleting all of her books in the process...)

I didn't loan her the book (she bought it) but I cleaned it for her and kept a copy for safekeeping myself (I wouldn't read it, as it's a Dutch translation of an English book and I already own the original English version...)

I believe what I did isn't really allowed, but I'd do it again in a flash...


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Where di you buy those though? Because in a normal bookstore English books were definitely more expensive!
I usually bought my English books in the UK, (thank the gods for internet!) and before that I told my local bookshop to order the English version for me...

And as already mentioned, it was always cheaper to buy something from the UK, with postage and handling abroad, than it was to buy from a Dutch B&M bookstore...

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Originally Posted by Iskariot View Post
Oh... and I went to the American Bookstore and W.H. Smith in Amsterdam on a regular basis. Always came home with a bag of books. Great scifi mostly.
That would have been even more expensive for me, living in Groningen as I do!
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:51 AM   #104
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My mother wanted to buy an e-book. It was infected with DRM. I told her not to buy it as I simply cannot explain via chat and email how she would have had to put the book on her ereader.
Your mother sounds like exactly the sort of person who'd benefit from a Kindle, with its ability to buy books directly on the reader without needing to worry about a PC at all.
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:37 AM   #105
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Your mother sounds like exactly the sort of person who'd benefit from a Kindle, with its ability to buy books directly on the reader without needing to worry about a PC at all.
That works with a Kobo e-reader and the Kobobooks store, as well. My Cybook also came "linked" to the Thalia.de e-book store (not that I ever shopped there). In either case, though, this locks the customer into the vendor's ecosystem and removes the element of freedom (of choice).

Admittedly, this may not be an issue for a more casual (or unconcerned?) reader, but still, if I could get my mother to accept e-readers (she's in her late sixties and sadly resilient, preferring paper books, if she reads at all), I'd probably handle it exactly like Sweetpea described.
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