Ebooks: Scarcity, abundance and economy

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I think we need a new format for reference material. [snip]

Agreed. Or we need epub to be a bit more versatile--not much more--and for devices to *support* all the features that epub allows. Right now, no companies are working on devices that support all that epubs can do.

You'd be suprised what you can get of current events/ect from the internet, which is usually more current than a travel book.

No question about the content. Where an ebook is better, is situations where you don't have access to the internet. Also, having "tourist info" separated from "historical info" is useful for travelers. However, currently, the only ebook devices that have enough features to really support travel books are the tablets--which expect constant wireless access for a lot of the other features that make them worth having. (Also, limited battery life, which gets in the way of some travel plans.)

A good history book can be read many years after it has been written, without loss. After all, the past isn't going to change (no remarks about the Change Winds, please.)

Heh. Mostly agreed? Agreed-with-caveats? History books of the past were mostly written by wealthy white Christian men (double-emphasis on men), and interpret the world through their particular set of biases. While there are some amazing exceptions, some aspects of history require modern books because they've been marginalized for centuries; only recent scholars have been willing to research them at all.

Also, a lot of older history books (like many modern ones) have a specific focus to push an agenda. This isn't a bad thing (Loewen's Sundown Towns uses its facts to show that racism is not part of the distant past in America), but if the agenda is no longer relevant, the book itself may be of limited use. History books that attempt to prove the need for widespread public education, for example, may not be too useful today.

I see value in both older history books and new ones; I don't think the problem is new ones are eclipsing the old ones as much as the old ones not being converted to digital formats except by Google scans.

[stonetools]

What is happening is that all writing is going to have to stand on it own (sic) two legs. If a large number of people value it, there'll be a lot of it. If not too many people like, there won't be much. Selah.

I guess I'm looking at things from a more public policy , "wholistic" viewpoint. I believe that an educated and knowledgeable citizenry is essential to a free state (even more essential than whats safeguarded in the Second Amendment of the US Constitution ) so I think that the book industry should be encouraged ( by government action if necessary ) to produce quality non fiction.
I think the publishing industry needs no incentive whatsoever to turn out genre fiction, which takes it place beside celebrity tell-alls on the best seller lists . Whats the publishing industry needs is to turn out the kind of nonfiction that educates the public against swallowing whole the pronouncements of say, the current crop of folks running for presidency of the most militarily powerful nation on Earth.
Frankly, a lot of the genre fiction published by a publisher beloved on this forum (Baen) espouses notions ("peace" through " firepower" ) that would bear criticism through the publication of just kind of historical non fiction that I would like the publishing industry to produce, but we are probably moving OT. I just want to show what the stakes are if we move to a situation where publishing industry churns out ONLY whats popular.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I guess I'm looking at things from a more public policy , "wholistic" viewpoint. I believe that an educated and knowledgeable citizenry is essential to a free state (even more essential than whats safeguarded in the Second Amendment of the US Constitution ) so I think that the book industry should be encouraged ( by government action if necessary ) to produce quality non fiction.
I think the publishing industry needs no incentive whatsoever to turn out genre fiction, which takes it place beside celebrity tell-alls on the best seller lists . Whats the publishing industry needs is to turn out the kind of nonfiction that educates the public against swallowing whole the pronouncements of say, the current crop of folks running for presidency of the most militarily powerful nation on Earth.
Frankly, a lot of the genre fiction published by a publisher beloved on this forum (Baen) espouses notions ("peace" through " firepower" ) that would bear criticism through the publication of just kind of historical non fiction that I would like the publishing industry to produce, but we are probably moving OT. I just want to show what the stakes are if we move to a situation where publishing industry churns out ONLY whats popular.

It seems to me that instead of "peace" through "firepower", you're recommending "freedom" through "corecion". When any government starts pushing the production of writing, the result is propagenda, not enlightenment. If you agree with what the government is pushing, it won't seem like propaganda to you, but to the mythical "man from Mars" it would certainly seem to be.

[Greg Anos]

I will also note, that without gatekeepers, more diversity in thought and opinion is available now that any time in American history. The internet is the golden age of freedom of thought...not just for America, but for the world.

And abundance is part and parcel of this freedom, inescapably intertwined with it.....

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

It seems to me that instead of "peace" through "firepower", you're recommending "freedom" through "corecion". When any government starts pushing the production of writing, the result is propagenda, not enlightenment. If you agree with what the government is pushing, it won't seem like propaganda to you, but to the mythical "man from Mars" it would certainly seem to be.

Actually, I'm not advocating coercion at all or any specific program. I'm just thinking that the government should give some kind of incentives- maybe like a MacArthur Prize- for writers to produce the kind of nonfiction that would make for a more informed citizenry. I have to do more thinking on the issue .
My point is a world of cheap, abundant genre fiction with too little informative nonfiction is not optimal for the long term health of of society .

I will also note, that without gatekeepers, more diversity in thought and opinion is available now that any time in American history. The internet is the golden age of freedom of thought...not just for America, but for the world.

Diversity of thought and opinion is a wonderful thing. But it ain't informed analysis by people who have researched the facts and written about it. You don't decide about whether creationism should be taught in schools , whether gays should have an equal right to marry, or whether "firepower" would resolve our issues with Iran by sampling opinion on the Internet- just to think of three weighty and contentious issues. We need folks who are willing to do that research and analysis and inform the public by writing about these kinds of issues, and companies who will publish it , instead of just pushing out the cheap popular stuff.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Actually, I'm not advocating coercion at all or any specific program. I'm just thinking that the government should give some kind of incentives- maybe like a MacArthur Prize- for writers to produce the kind of nonfiction that would make for a more informed citizenry. I have to do more thinking on the issue .
My point is a world of cheap, abundant genre fiction with too little informative nonfiction is not optimal for the long term health of of society .



Diversity of thought and opinion is a wonderful thing. But it ain't informed analysis by people who have researched the facts and written about it. You don't decide about whether creationism should be taught in schools , whether gays should have an equal right to marry, or whether "firepower" would resolve our issues with Iran by sampling opinion on the Internet- just to think of three weighty and contentious issues. We need folks who are willing to do that research and analysis and inform the public by writing about these kinds of issues, and companies who will publish it , instead of just pushing out the cheap popular stuff.

We don't get it now, nor have we gotten it in my lifetime. What we have gotten is agenda-drive analysis masquerading as even-handed analysis. Most of the analysts are not even aware of their biases.

I could mention a half-dozen hot-ticket issues, but to mention them would side track this thread even more.

Besides, who decides which analysis is worthy of dissemination? Your opinion? mine? some big corporation's?

[crossi]

Universities have an incentive, two actually, first "Publish or Perish", second ego.
Academics don't publish because they actually believe they'll make money from the books.

[howyoudoin]

Originally Posted by crossi

Universities have an incentive, two actually, first "Publish or Perish", second ego.
Academics don't publish because they actually believe they'll make money from the books.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

[IMG]SNIP/IMG]

I love it!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Not that all of this socio-political discussion is (probably skating close to being yanked by whatever mod's in earshot)... but I'm more concerned about the economy of an abundance market than I am about content.

In an abundant economy, there will be plenty of content of all kinds. But in the scarcity economy, books were monetized based on scarcity. If books will continue to be monetized, what will it be based on? If books won't be monetized, what will encourage book writing and production? If the economy of books changes radically, how will that impact those who create books (or possibly those who don't create books yet)?

[Kumabjorn]

The first problem that appears with a market characterized by abundance is that it will come up against competition against other markets that it didn't compete against earlier. These markets on the other hand are characterized by scarcity, hence their perceived value is higher.
Think of the Old Wireless. Classic scarcity. One or two stations broadcasting a few hours at night. The whole family gathered around the speaker, marvelling at the sound emenating. Fast forward to today. Radios are everywhere, in your phone, alarm clock, kitchen clock, car, ear protectors and whatnot. Literally thousands and thousands of stations available, some via satelite or internet. Extremely segmented, very few all purpose radio stations left. Talk shows, politically from extreme expressions of conservative, liberal, socialist (outside US at least), libertarian etc.
Look for something similar do develop in the book market. What took 100 years for radio will likely happen in less than 30 for books.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Think of the Old Wireless...

Might be a very good example, because radio (and television) became monetized by third-parties, sponsors and advertisers, subsidizing the content for consumers to enjoy for free. I can see this outcome for ebooks, down the line.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

The first problem that appears with a market characterized by abundance is that it will come up against competition against other markets that it didn't compete against earlier. These markets on the other hand are characterized by scarcity, hence their perceived value is higher.[...]
What took 100 years for radio will likely happen in less than 30 for books.

Comparing to radio has some problems. End-users never paid for radio content; radio broadcasters paid for content, and got the money for those payments from advertisers.

People have been attempting to subsidize books with advertising for decades, with pretty much no success. None of the suggested methods for "how to add advertising to [e]books" has overcome the essential hurdle of, "how do you make this profitable for advertisers?" (The conversation tends to center around "How do you keep it from being too annoying for readers," instead of noting that the business problem with annoyed readers is that they don't buy more of the product that annoyed them... "readers don't like" means "not profitable for advertisers.")

Google would love to be able to offer "streaming ebooks" where you read on their site, and text ads sit politely on the side of the books. But unlike the RIAA, there's no big central organization that you can contract for book licensing rights. Can't even just contract with major publishers... every author's contract is different.

I'm not sure what the face of ebook abundance is going to be, but I'm fairly certain it's not going to strongly resemble radio business dynamics.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

People have been attempting to subsidize books with advertising for decades, with pretty much no success.

True; but now that we have a new format and delivery mechanism, things could be very different than past attempts.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

None of the suggested methods for "how to add advertising to [e]books" has overcome the essential hurdle of, "how do you make this profitable for advertisers?" (The conversation tends to center around "How do you keep it from being too annoying for readers," instead of noting that the business problem with annoyed readers is that they don't buy more of the product that annoyed them... "readers don't like" means "not profitable for advertisers.")

In the past, advertising embedded in the book was tried, and didn't do so well. Today, advertisers embed ads on the websites you visit to get your books. This is minimally annoying to readers, no more so than TV commercials (at least, the ones that remain inside of commercial breaks, and don't cavort across the bottom of the screen while the show it on). And it frees ebooks from having to carry ads (which become obsolete quickly anyway, removing the value of the ad space).

If I could secure a sponsor/advertiser for my website, paying me per visit, I would gladly release my books for free. That would seem like a win-win to me, once the payments per visit were worked out between publisher (me) and advertiser.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

If I could secure a sponsor/advertiser for my website, paying me per visit, I would gladly release my books for free. That would seem like a win-win to me, once the payments per visit were worked out between publisher (me) and advertiser.

Knowing what someone reads is probably pretty important to advertisers. Especially if it has to do with self help sort of stuff. Eventually Amazon will just let us put our books into the kindle pool and display ads when we turn on our devices or something. Deals won't be worked out beforehand though, that's not how it works anymore.