Konrath and friends take on Turow

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by John F

Could you provide a link?

Browsing through this thread:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=139139

it looks like people are saying in theory you should be able to, but in practice, you can't (except for the last post). From what I can see, no one has been able to successfully open a B&N DRM ePub on a kobo.

I just tried. I downloaded a free ePub from B&N (using the B&N PC software), and sideloaded it to my Kobo Touch. On my Kobo Touch, there is no cover for the, and when I try to open the book, I get an error message.

THis is what happens to me when I download from B&N (and using the B&N app, I cannot open regular epub books already residing on my computer.)

[MattW]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/0...ott-turow.html

Point by point rebutals and commentary.
Some very compelling points, especially Suzanne White's segment near the end.

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Whether or not such laws make sense in today's world of big publishers and the internet is open for debate, of course. All I am trying to say is that it's not as clear-cut as it may look. And while I am not a fan of big publishing, I personally don't trust that Apple & Amazon have only the good of the consumer in mind. They both don't sell books out of love for the medium.

Matt

[howyoudoin]

Originally Posted by MattW

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Does this also apply to the second-hand book market, out of curiosity?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by MattW

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Whether or not such laws make sense in today's world of big publishers and the internet is open for debate, of course. All I am trying to say is that it's not as clear-cut as it may look. And while I am not a fan of big publishing, I personally don't trust that Apple & Amazon have only the good of the consumer in mind. They both don't sell books out of love for the medium.

Matt

Yes, and with the "Buchpreisbindung" you pay a lot more than you should. If European consumers are generally happy with that, I don't know. I would like to buy some German books, occasionally. But every time I see the prices I think "forget it, I will read the English translation or I won't buy the book at all". So I only buy German books to use up some old gift coupons someone gave me.

So the real question is, should book buyers be squeezed to keep small bookstores alive?

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

Does this also apply to the second-hand book market, out of curiosity?

No, it doesn't (at least not in the Netherlands).

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by MattW

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Whether or not such laws make sense in today's world of big publishers and the internet is open for debate, of course. All I am trying to say is that it's not as clear-cut as it may look. And while I am not a fan of big publishing, I personally don't trust that Apple & Amazon have only the good of the consumer in mind. They both don't sell books out of love for the medium.

Matt

What's going on with Agency pricing isn't quite the same thing since it applies only to digital books and not paper books as well.


As far as Apple & Amazon go (or B&N or Kobo or Sony for that matter) they have the best interests of their business in mind above anything else of course.

[ProfCrash]

The difference is in Germany, and other countries, it is the law of the land. In the US, the practice violates the law of the land.

The question is not whether it is a valid way to price books. The question is how did they reach the decision to price books and did that process violate the law in the US?

The answer is the Publishers and Apple violated the law in the US. People have been arguing that from day one and it sure looks like DOJ has the ability to make a solid legal case against Apple and the Publishers.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

The answer is the Publishers and Apple violated the law in the US. People have been arguing that from day one and it sure looks like DOJ has the ability to make a solid legal case against Apple and the Publishers.

+1
And the euro cartel busters have their own issues with the Price Fixers so it seems there isn't much parallel in *their* eyes either. Probably because when it comes to ebooks there are no small local players to be "protected" at the expense of consumers; it's all about giant multinationals ripping off consumers.
Or maybe the euro cartel busters don't think 19th century rules are a good fit for the 21st century and we're looking at the first steps at dismantling an obsolete protectionist framework.
It's been a while since Bismarck, after all.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Yes, and with the "Buchpreisbindung" you pay a lot more than you should. If European consumers are generally happy with that, I don't know. I would like to buy some German books, occasionally. But every time I see the prices I think "forget it, I will read the English translation or I won't buy the book at all". So I only buy German books to use up some old gift coupons someone gave me.

So the real question is, should book buyers be squeezed to keep small bookstores alive?

So how does that work with ebooks? Mine sell in Germany and I think the price is a direct conversion from the dollar. I set the prices and I think that carries over--but is a tax added to it? Or do you mean that only German produced books have this Buchpreisbindung?

Very curious.

[tomsem]

Okay, sounds like Kobo still hasn't joined the B&N party and that the report I saw which said that it worked was in error.

I have never understood the thinking involved in deciding not toimplement the workflow to allow B&N books to be side-loaded. It will always be easier to get content from Kobo on a Kobo device, or from Sony on a Sony device. They should do everything possible to get people to get one of their devices, it will almost certainly result in some book sales as well, especially since there is so little price competition, thanks to agency pricing.

But if people can't take their existing content with them, it presents a barrier to B&N customers considering a switch to Kobo or Sony, whereas there aren't any going the other direction. And these artificial incompatibilities makes Kindle DRM seem friendly by comparison, when it really isn't.

Adobe Digital Editions 1.8 Preview will open B&N books, but doesn't include any device support. When Adobe adds device support, it may at last be possible to use it to side-load B&N content on more devices.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by tomsem

Okay, sounds like Kobo still hasn't joined the B&N party and that the report I saw which said that it worked was in error.

I have never understood the thinking involved in deciding not toimplement the workflow to allow B&N books to be side-loaded. It will always be easier to get content from Kobo on a Kobo device, or from Sony on a Sony device. They should do everything possible to get people to get one of their devices, it will almost certainly result in some book sales as well, especially since there is so little price competition, thanks to agency pricing.

But if people can't take their existing content with them, it presents a barrier to B&N customers considering a switch to Kobo or Sony, whereas there aren't any going the other direction. And these artificial incompatibilities makes Kindle DRM seem friendly by comparison, when it really isn't.

Adobe Digital Editions 1.8 Preview will open B&N books, but doesn't include any device support. When Adobe adds device support, it may at last be possible to use it to side-load B&N content on more devices.

Companies always try proprietary FIRST. Apple is a huge example. I used to work for Compaq. For years they had a proprietary keyboard for their PCs. So if you wanted a different one or needed a new one...

Eventually that nonsense has to go away, but it never stops companies from trying it.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Companies always try proprietary FIRST. Apple is a huge example. I used to work for Compaq. For years they had a proprietary keyboard for their PCs. So if you wanted a different one or needed a new one...

Eventually that nonsense has to go away, but it never stops companies from trying it.

Mostly because it works often enough that trying proprietary is a good gamble; when it pays off, it pays off big. When it doesn't, they go "open" and get to demonize those who tried proprietary and made it pay off.
It's a win-almost win proposition.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

So how does that work with ebooks? Mine sell in Germany and I think the price is a direct conversion from the dollar. I set the prices and I think that carries over--but is a tax added to it? Or do you mean that only German produced books have this Buchpreisbindung?

Very curious.

I am an expat who left Germany long, long ago, so others will be able to give you more details about this. As I understand a publisher sets the price when the book first comes out. And, for a period of time, nobody is allowed to give a discount. The price, for ebooks too, includes the 19% VAT (that was the latest figure I know of, if they haven't raised it again).

So my guess is, for you books it is the same, your publisher/agent sets the price the first time one of yours comes to market. And, as far as I know, the Buchpreisbindung works the same for foreign language books. Should be easy for you to check on your books and see how much they charge in Europe.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I am an expat who left Germany long, long ago, so others will be able to give you more details about this. As I understand a publisher sets the price when the book first comes out. And, for a period of time, nobody is allowed to give a discount. The price, for ebooks too, includes the 19% VAT (that was the latest figure I know of, if they haven't raised it again).

So my guess is, for you books it is the same, your publisher/agent sets the price the first time one of yours comes to market. And, as far as I know, the Buchpreisbindung works the same for foreign language books. Should be easy for you to check on your books and see how much they charge in Europe.

Ah, then I am seeing the right price, but I think it is before the 19 percent (or 21 now?) I have to be logged out of the US account to see the foreign prices and sometimes based on IP they don't show up. Or based on some other mysterious factor of the internet or Amazon. Sometimes the only way I can see the price is to go to the forums there and use the "product link." That will usually show the price.

Thanks.

[HansTWN]

No, all prices shown include tax. The US actually seems to be an exception around the world that prices shown are pre-tax.

Perhaps they have priced your books very reasonably. They can do that, of course.