ASUSteK's answer to the Foleo: the Eee PC, and it's $200!

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by alex_d

I think I deserve to argue my point and to do it with some sort of personal attachment.

Then argue your point without making your argument personal.

Refraining from calling people names, denigrating their intelligence, and using sarcasm and condescension (which doesn't translate well to the written medium with out a lot of work), is not copping out.

It's having a respectful, mature discussion.

[alex_d]

Ok, natch, then I argue that we should give a free computer to every black person but make sure it only has five buttons. But, of course, also a webbrowser. And plenty of games that are secretly educational (but the silly black people won't realize it). Thank you, everyone, for responding kindly to my suggestion.

I'm not going to rant about this any more. But damn, natch, have some perspective.

[NatCh]

The perspective I. have, alex_d, is that everyone here deserves to be treated with respect. I am actually unconcerned with the points you wish to argue, so long as they're not inherently disrespectful to anyone (I realize that your last comment was meant flippantly, but it comes awfully close to that line).

Clearly, I am not alone in this perspective.

The reason I've stayed around this forum as long as I have, and become so active in it, is that the folks here treat each other respectfully. It's pretty unique in that regard. Most forums are virtual snake-pits of insult, counter-insult and endless sniping, and I don't want to see MobileRead degenerate in to such a place.

No one is suggesting that you not express your opinions, all we're asking is that you be a little gentler about it. This is an important part of our society at large, not just this forum.

A lot of folks seem to think that it's not worth being respectful to others these days, and they seem to regard the less than welcoming reaction their disrespect garners them as proof that it's okay to be disrespectful. The reality is that being nice to others generally means they'll be nice back. And there's always time to get nasty later, if that turns out to be appropriate.

All that name calling, condescension, and other such personal attacks do, is to tacitly admit the lack of any actual argument that can withstand discussion, and rile people up.

I value the mature respectful atmosphere around here, and I'm pretty confident the other Editors and the Administrators do as well. A lot of people have put a lot of effort into creating and maintaining it. All I'm asking in return is a bit of cooperation on that effort.

[yvanleterrible]

There are many stages in a kid's development. Many of these stages are before they have yet reached intellectual cognitive construction. We must take all this in context before we use the word 'kid' especially when we choose or talk of equipment for them.

I was in my thirties when personnal computers with GUI were born. If I'd been raised with them, I'd be quite different for sure. My kids, now well in their twenties, have evolved and learned with those GUI computers and even now they spend more time being entertained by them than using them as serious work tools.

Some kids in early stages of development, do not take to the computer. Sit a kid who does not write yet to a blank page in Word and watch. Put the same kid in front of a video game and he will surely take to it. At younger ages kid are more spectators than participants. Even when they have learned to read and begun to acquire knowlege they will have a tendancy to be lead by an action more than initializing one.

Hey! why do most adults today prefer to drone before a tv set than to run a line of code? Why are so many people computer illiterate? How can there be kids today who are not able to read? Or young adults who have managed to sneak through, right up to college without knowing how to read? Those cases are more numerous that we'd like to think.

Most reasons for all these observations turn around the fact that the computer has not been democratized yet and offered to developing minds. It is still more expensive than what can be afforded for kids. A small portable computer such as the ones we're examining now proposes a decent alternative, not to the specs of a rich programmer, but to the eyes of a kid who can now say "My Personal Computer"


I do wish this recent argumentation to pipe down a little. It is unworthy of the intelligence of the 'propos' usually carried at MR. There is an etiquette here that has always been observed about respect and right of speech. However passionate opinions are. there is always a proper way to express oneself that gives value to debate. What suprises me is that all parties preach for the same important thing. We care about kids.

[alex_d]

hmm, yvan, you make some good, detailed points. We should definately first be explicit about age. In my head I am thinking of someone 10-12 years old although many of my points I would apply to 7yos too. (OLPC defines its target group as 6-18 years old, which is rather broad and covers kids who are just beginning to read as well as those who are more than old enough to be intensively programming.)

Your main point is that kids need some sort of reason to use a computer is very valid. But, that shouldn't turn into an argument that all a kid should have is a device that only caters to that end reason. Ie, a kid will have the objective of playing a video game or going on Disney's site. Should you give them a computer with a "Play video game" and "Go to Disney" button, or should you give them a full winxp machine and let them figure out how to use the start menu, install a program, and check their wireless connection?


I feel that my most precious argument, the one that is most likely to push the buttons of many people here, is that adults shouldn't try to project their feelings about computers on children. Many adults feel frustrated and intimidated by computers. Figuring out how to do something may feel like worse than a chore, like pure stress. They enjoy the simplicity of the macintosh.

And they feel that giving a kid a computer with that push-button, appliance-like simplicity will do them a service. Will relieve their stress. Make them happy. Maybe I am saying this too emphatically, but I think you know what I'm talking about.

However, kids fundamentally do not feel this way. They don't mind, they just soak it all in. It's because of their brains, their emotions, their curiosity, whatever, etc, it doesn't matter. In fact, don't even try to understand, just take it on faith.

This is the little bit of perspective that I want to get across to all the old adults who shouldn't try to make the OLPC to be like the computer they'd like to have.

And I'm sorry if this argument makes some people here confront their own selves. (And look, I know that's not the only issue people have with my posts, but it was what was in mogui's head after I replied to nekomai's "most people i teach never go beyond the basics" with "it's because they're old.")

Most reasons for all these observations turn around the fact that the computer has not been democratized yet and offered to developing minds. It is still more expensive than what can be afforded for kids. A small portable computer such as the ones we're examining now proposes a decent alternative, not to the specs of a rich programmer, but to the eyes of a kid who can now say "My Personal Computer"

The OLPC is not a computer. It is an appliance. The word 'computer' is very powerful, perhaps even deserving of its hype. So we must apply it carefully. The Eee, though, is a real computer. And that's why I think it has immeasurably more merit than the OLPC. It has the potential of changing these kids' lives, same as the computer (and windows and all the applications that are run on it) has forged my own.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by alex_d

I feel that my most precious argument, the one that is most likely to push the buttons of many people here, is that adults shouldn't try to project their feelings about computers on children. Many adults feel frustrated and intimidated by computers. Figuring out how to do something may feel like worse than a chore, like pure stress. They enjoy the simplicity of the macintosh.

And they feel that giving a kid a computer with that push-button, appliance-like simplicity will do them a service. Will relieve their stress. Make them happy.

I think that's a most excellent point, alex_d. I have to deal with a lot of folks who are intimidated by computers too, and I hadn't considered what effect that sort of attitude might have on the thinking people who are trying to design a computer that is "universally inclusive" for children who've never seen one before.

I don't know a great deal about the folks who are designing the OLPC device, so I don't know how prone they might be to that particular mental pitfall ... but I think it's at least as likely that they might fall into it by over-compensating, which could produce the same result.

The folks I deal with who are the most difficult are the ones who seem to think that their high-degree 'educations' (M.D., Ph.D., or mudfud for short) mean that everything should be simple for them, and if it's not, then there must be something wrong with whatever it is they're finding not simple enough.

Maybe I should try them out on one of your five-button models, that might be right up their allies.

Originally Posted by alex_d

The OLPC is not a computer. It is an appliance. The word 'computer' is very powerful, perhaps even deserving of its hype. So we must apply it carefully. The Eee, though, is a real computer. And that's why I think it has immeasurably more merit than the OLPC. It has the potential of changing these kids' lives, same as the computer (and windows and all the applications that are run on it) has forged my own.

I'd agree with that, but the edge that the OLPC has is that it's designed to operate in a situation with ... low infrastructure. I'd love to see something with its level of self-sufficiency in that regard, that had capabilities more in-line with what the 3-E boasts. That'd be something.

[Nightwing]

Found the shot of the 1001 sign...

http://www.tgdaily.com/index.php?opt...6&currentPic=7

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by alex_d

Your main point is that kids need some sort of reason to use a computer is very valid. But, that shouldn't turn into an argument that all a kid should have is a device that only caters to that end reason.


I feel that my most precious argument, the one that is most likely to push the buttons of many people here, is that adults shouldn't try to project their feelings about computers on children. Many adults feel frustrated and intimidated by computers. Figuring out how to do something may feel like worse than a chore, like pure stress. They enjoy the simplicity of the macintosh.

And they feel that giving a kid a computer with that push-button, appliance-like simplicity will do them a service. Will relieve their stress. Make them happy. Maybe I am saying this too emphatically, but I think you know what I'm talking about.

However, kids fundamentally do not feel this way. They don't mind, they just soak it all in. It's because of their brains, their emotions, their curiosity, whatever, etc, it doesn't matter. In fact, don't even try to understand, just take it on faith.

This is the little bit of perspective that I want to get across to all the old adults who shouldn't try to make the OLPC to be like the computer they'd like to have.

And I'm sorry if this argument makes some people here confront their own selves. (And look, I know that's not the only issue people have with my posts, but it was what was in mogui's head after I replied to nekomai's "most people i teach never go beyond the basics" with "it's because they're old.")



The OLPC is not a computer. It is an appliance. The word 'computer' is very powerful, perhaps even deserving of its hype. So we must apply it carefully. The Eee, though, is a real computer. And that's why I think it has immeasurably more merit than the OLPC. It has the potential of changing these kids' lives, same as the computer (and windows and all the applications that are run on it) has forged my own.

I agree with the fact that the computer definition is kind of fudged and leads to confusion. The computer today is mainly used as a data gathering and storing device; a library. It is called so only because that in this storing device there is a computer. Point clear.

The reasons for offering simplicity are numerous but the main ones turn around 'ease of access', giving the possibility to process data to everyone. Let me make the analogy of a transportation machine. Most everyone can use a car but does everyone have to know how to service it? To design one? To repair one? In 99% of education needs, a powerful computer is useless.

Today's use of computers in education turns around bringing knowledge and a battery of choices to young minds not necessarily to better their skills in computing. One chooses a career based on personnal aptitudes, instincts, capacity, tastes and... limits. Lets say a kid is interested in again, cars, he will lookup all he can find and then when there is no more to be found on his own he'll want to look for more and ask. There is the sign of maturation that tells his educator that he is in line with a path. Further studies in this field are possible and warrants this kid to go on a specific destination. But I realize that things in life are not so clear cut.

A kid that is destined for programming or computer and electronics design will give the hints I previously grossly exemplified. Then it is time to give him the tools you say are needed. And you are right, those have to be adequate for that task. But there is a specific time for that part of development that must be done in a frame. This frame is very important to respect, otherwise this young mind will not have time to develop all the other required skills necessary to function maturely in society. The word 'Nerd' pops up to mind.

There are other kinds of intelligences that are worthy of development. I call them intelligent because they rely on brain functions. For example sports. I'm always amazed at the quickness with which a soccer player can decide where to go and what to do next. Agreed some of it is learned, but this is a sport made for improvisation. That brings me directly to music and arts, all these skills as we call them require intelligence. What is the quickest way to teach and help find out information about all this... data gathering and storage computers, and the graphics capacities only a computer can give.

I'm very happy that some kids will take to a saw quicker than to a keyboard, and the inverse too. "Variety is the Spice of Life"

I agree that the eee is a much better tool than the OLPC. It is normal, The OLPC is more than five years old!!!?!!! Isn't it sad that education is thwarted by the planned obsolescence computer mongers set on us? I'm all for their planned richness but why has society have to pay for it? because it is society as a whole that is affected, not only part of it but the Whole!... I'm off topic...

Now to the point you judge 'sensible' It is not. I am a Mac... and a PC... and a Unix lover. My first computer was a MacIntosh because at that time there was no Windows and that I couldn't spend months learning DOS. Do you know French? Why bother to learn it? Same reasons for DOS.

I am an artist, a sculptor. I'm very good at it but not brilliant. Only the brilliant survive at it. Being a family man and having to earn a keep I took to furniture because it was the only way to design without expensive studies at that time. The Mac, because of its graphic functions, was the only computer for me. It gave me a quick way to REdraw and REwork my designs to an acceptable refinement. It was also the only computer that didn't require tutorship. Windows joined it, it was ok only when someone brought graphics to it. How many people rely on graphics for a living today? I still have no talent for programming puzzles because I don't have time for it, but I can create and build the most complex and intricate furniture with the best of them. Most programmers wouldn't know where to start, even less how to repair their own car!
This rant is only to make a point that computers as they are today are not restricted to sciences and mathematics. But why should I feel that I'd be pushed to repeat this point? Because it is felt that only one, the best, latest universal machine is needed. False, no more than I'd use a Swiss Army knife to buid furniture. In its simplicity, the learning computer is an activator, a mover of minds that multiplies and then reduces the amount of choices an individual requires to set a path. Making him set in his life more quickly. The learning computer helps one to learn how to learn and then we can move the learner towards the other computer that will be his career limb.

Back to the thread. I just wish I'd had this nifty little thing when I grew up.

[NatCh]

You bring up an interesting point, yvanleterrible, specifically that not everyone is going to be a programmer, just like not everyone is going to be a CEO or airline pilot. But that's a good thing -- where would we be if everyone was an airline pilot? Who would build the stinkin' airplanes?!?

So that suggests that if they used the E-3, instead of the OLPC not all of the kids who got one would make full use of it. For that matter, a lot of them wouldn't make full use of the OLPC, I suppose. But to the ones who would, the more capability they can have access to, the better. I just don't have any idea where that balance point would be.

[Nightwing]

finally a operating video of this thing...

http://www.technorati.com/videos/you...%3DtFLJJw6WRqM

[branko]

Somebody started a blog about the EEE, http://www.eeeuser.com. It ate my comment, but also has a second video about the EEE. Could a Chinese Mobilereader please try and translate that second video?

[mogui]

Some of this discussion has attempted to place a dimension on computer ability that is not quite relevant. If we look at computer ability as represented by a bell-shaped curve, at the lower levels, perhaps even a standard deviation to the left of the mean, we have those who could benefit from the five-button computing appliance.

At the other end of the curve we have those like alex_d and kovidgoyal who have the ability to deal with computers at any level of detail. In the middle we have those who are primarily users, and prefer a visual/kinesthetic user interface because it does everything they need.

Some of the factors in this ability of which we speak are cognitive style, intelligence and interest. Age is not a factor unless we are dealing with neurological immaturity or neuropathology. That was the point of my opening sentence.

As I computer professional and a leader and teacher of engineers, I have seen how cognitive style plays a part in our thinking about computers. If one is primarily verbal, one thinks sequentially in symbols. Discussions are usually in terms of labels. Memory plays an especially big part in this style of engineering mentality. This person is a natural for a CLI environment because it fits his style of thinking.

The visual thinker wants to see pictures. She likes visual representations of ideas in the form of flow diagrams and state charts. She will take to a GUI readily and will build graphical front ends for traditionally command-line tasks.

Then there is the kinesthetic individual. His "vision" of a device is from the inside. He can imagine the flow of a program as something happening in the air around him. He will point to processes in the air and discuss them. He moves as he thinks. His style is almost a visual style except it is turned inward. This person is often highly intuitive about device processes.

If we want to consider age a factor, our thinking might be restricted to the developing brain, as it has been pointed out here, developmental stages present unique problems.

Given a device like the Eee, one can provide a service for almost anyone in the bell-shaped curve. It will be very hackable, plus it will be designed to be easy to use. There is a need for the creation of an interface for those at the extreme left of the curve. Some elderly people who have started to lose their eyesight and who no longer think clearly need the "five button" interface.

I would like to see the five big buttons on a touchscreen. Each of them would be a distinct icon. You can decide for yourself what they might be, but here are some of mine:
1/ Play my music. 5 more buttons come up: classical, rock, etc.
2/ Call somebody. 5 names appear in huge letters -- a VoIP app.
3/ Call for help.
4/ Be a slideshow.
5/ Show me a movie: 5 choices appear.

You can imagine one of your own too I expect.

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by mogui

I would be quite happy to carry a spare battery for my Asus Eee. I hope it is replaceable.

It says 4 cells at the top of the thread. Are those removeable AA?

[mogui]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

It says 4 cells at the top of the thread. Are those removeable AA?

I have looked through quite a few reviews now hoping to pick up this information, but nobody is telling. Do you notice how rounded the hinge is between the screen and the body? Some AA rechargeables would be very nice.

I wonder if I'll be able to get one in Hong Kong

[yvanleterrible]

Hmmm! Nice observation.

Hoping it can be! Mobility would be total with NiMh AA cells. There are solar chargers for them. If you're stuck in Saint-Somewhere you'll be OK!