Excessive profanity in books

[bjones6416]

I think using profanity sparingly and carefully in a book can be VERY effective to set a mood or convey a situation. No spoiler here, but anyone who is a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold knows that she manages to write engaging and thrilling stories over and over without the use of profanity (at least for the most part.) However, the latest novel about Miles (Cryoburn) has a passage in it that tears your heart out, solely because of the profanity. In that case it is used to convey very strong emotion, and it would be a lesser book without it. (In my opinion, anyway. )

[taming]

I would definitely read reviews on one of the big community sites like Goodreads if I had strong feelings about curse words, violence, etc. The reviews aren't necessarily particularly well written--and I am interested in what my friends think of a book, but not so much in what other people there say --but things like that attract mention.

[poohbear_nc]

A friendly reminder. Please remember to observe MobileRead's guidelines for "family-friendly" language in your posts.
MobileRead Moderation Team

Posting Guidelines.

[charleski]

Originally Posted by JLeighs

I hate it. Maybe I'm old-fashioned

Little, Brown turned down Norman Mailer's The Naked and the Dead because it contained too much swearing. It eventually got published with [profane language edited by moderation] changed to 'fug'.

That was 1948 - so yeah, you're a bit old-fashioned.

It's hard to imagine how you'd write a novel about an Army unit in active combat without using a lot of swear-words. They're a part of the language and play an important role in setting the tone of the scene.

I'm sure there are some writers who use gratuitous profanity as a crutch, but that's just bad writing, and there are lots of bad writers out there. Personally, I'm more offended by poor grammar and sentence construction, but I don't think books should have stickers saying 'PG-15: Author ends phrases with a preposition and uses run-on sentences'.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

I think that political correctness is more corrosive than censorship ever was.

You're wrong. Political correctness is censorship.

"You can't write that because somebody doesn't want to read that word" is censorship whether that word is "Devil" or "God". It's censorship no matter what the words are that we can't write. It's censorship if it's the "N-word" or the "F-word" or any other euphemistically letter-named word. If we can't legally put a word in a book, it's censorship no matter what name you stick on it.

There is a huge difference between choosing not to offend someone based on what they and you consider offensive, and being legally mandated not to say or write something that someone else considers offensive. Neither one, by the way, has anything to do with a person's level or type of religious belief. I have seen all combinations. Remember, always, that a government with the power to make other people do what you want them to has the power to make you do what other people want you to. Censorship is censorship, whatever its political stripe.

Personally, I consider inappropriate profanity in books on a par with bad formatting, flat writing, or Mary Sues. If I buy a book and it turns out to be something I don't like, it doesn't matter, in terms of how I look at that author in the future, if the problem was that he had characters swear when they shouldn't, or couldn't write his way out of a soggy paper bag with a set of instructions. It's not a good book. There are a thousand reasons a book can be bad, and a character using profanity is just one of them. So, as a related example, is a book where every single character, from illiterate wino to college professor, talks exactly alike, and all in the author's voice. So the characters swear too much. Or the author swears too much. That's a reason not to buy any more books by that author, the same as any of that thousand other reasons. I don't distinguish it as a special reason to dislike a book.

If we're going to have ratings, can we have ratings for painfully bad writing, too? Please? And maybe special ones for series that used to be good, but went off the rails? How about a rating for pointless plots? Goes nowhere, does nothing subplots? Characters that make you want to drown them? Characters that make you want to drown yourself? There are innumerable reasons why a book can be terrible and the language used by the characters, not only in terms of whether they use "naughty" words but whether it fits their character in innumerable other ways, is only one of them. Given the number of reasons I've put a book down, I think it might be a minor one at that; it's so much harder to spot, let alone ignore, writing that starts out okay then turns deadly dull.

After all, in the end, the most horrible swear word you can think of is just a sound. It's just letters on a page. If you don't internalize it -- if you don't say "yes, this is true, and that's how I think" -- it's nothing more than a random string of characters, to acknowledge or ignore as you choose.

P.S. Pooh, how is not swearing "family-friendly" when the worst potty-mouths I've ever met have been 12 and under?

[Logseman]

'PG-15: Author ends phrases with a preposition and uses run-on sentences'.

What's the point you're trying to bring up?

Seriously, I never imagined that was poor writing. I mean, there are rules for it, aren't there? Is writing with sentences which finish with prepositions considered bad style?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

...P.S. Pooh, how is not swearing "family-friendly" when the worst potty-mouths I've ever met have been 12 and under?

I had the same thought when I read Pooh's post. Not only do the little "darlings" have foul mouths, they are disrespectful. I didn't post anything because I had been busting the mods' chops lately and there were a few posts that may or may not have crossed the line (I don't know if the ** were inserted by the posters or by the forum software or the mods).

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

And heaven forbid (pun intended) mentioning religion in front of an atheist! It's like waving a red flag in front of an irritated bull. They literally can't control themselves. They just have to attack. To them the word God is THE most offensive profanity around and they'll go to any length to stamp it out or drive the offender away.

Careful.. Don't paint us with too broad of a brush. Some of us atheist couldn't care less what myths you believe. Just don't try to convert me. *Then* there might be a discussion.

[theducks]

I am surprised on how much profanity has crept into the fiction I read.
Some of it belongs to the character and situation.

Unfortunatly, some seems to be a sign of the times. I routinly hear Jr High kids routinly drop F bombs while walking down my street (Not exactly a low rent district )

My ears are not tender after 10 year in the US Navy
But gimme a break.

[charleski]

Originally Posted by Logseman

Seriously, I never imagined that was poor writing. I mean, there are rules for it, aren't there? Is writing with sentences which finish with prepositions considered bad style?

It's certainly very common, just like swearing, but shouldn't parents be warned so they can protect their children from it?

[and I see quoting Norman Mailer isn't welcome on these forums, so much for literature]

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Yes, but how many of those profanity-free old-time SF books have made-up words replacing obscenities where it is fracking obvious what the frelling words are substituting for? Tanj!

frackin'-a, you fargin' icehole!!

[brecklundin]

Smurf joke of the day:

What is the definition of a "smack"?
:
:
:
it's what Smurfs do when the smuck....

=================================
Now, that was an example of where YOUR MIND takes you...for the sanctimonious of you it was your own thought process that took you to the conclusion you have about the above...to me, it's a funny and cute joke...what is it to you? And what does that say about you and the "values" you supposedly espouse and feel everyone else must abide by...

As has been said several times, don't like a book's language, don't buy it or return it...that is how a mature adult would deal with the issue. Gimme sex and profanities over excessive violence over the Jerry Falwell's of the world every time.

[altworld]

It would depend what the situation called for, people swear its one of those things and books should reflect this especially if they are set in this day and age. The hero(ine) is more likely to swear than ever before. The trick is to keep it within context.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

Smurf joke of the day:

What is the definition of a "smack"?
:
:
:
it's what Smurfs do when the smuck....

=================================
Now, that was an example of where YOUR MIND takes you...for the sanctimonious of you it was your own thought process that took you to the conclusion you have about the above...to me, it's a funny and cute joke...what is it to you? And what does that say about you and the "values" you supposedly espouse and feel everyone else must abide by...

As has been said several times, don't like a book's language, don't buy it or return it...that is how a mature adult would deal with the issue. Gimme sex and profanities over excessive violence over the Jerry Falwell's of the world every time.

I must really be innocent because I didn't get it.

However, I do that to people all the time, especially when working a Renaissance Festival. I can take almost anything someone says and with just an expression or a leading but otherwise clean word, often one they just used and set their train of thought in a direction I don't even want to know about. The embarrassed looks on their faces are priceless.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Careful.. Don't paint us with too broad of a brush. Some of us atheist couldn't care less what myths you believe. Just don't try to convert me. *Then* there might be a discussion.

In that sentence, you've differentiated yourself, and most atheists, from some of the people who jump from one thread to another pointing out how all catholic priests are pedophiles, and that anyone who believes in a god of some sort is a potential harm to society.


"Some of us atheist couldn't care less what myths you believe."

Myths. It can't get better than that. I wish some of the others would let it go at that.

For most of my life I just didn't care one way or another. Some religious beliefs seem more than a little odd to me. But I'm willing to let them believe in anything that makes them a better person, even if it's a belief in leprechauns.