Yet another thumb of the nose from publishers

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Yeah, I'm aware of that, so let me put a better focus on my position.
what puzzles me is that publishers don't say:
[*]Hey an ebooks server-space comsumption is not worth mentioning in comparison to the shelf space competition, thus every reseller can offer the whole actual +backshelf stuff of our authors simultaneously.

It would be nice if it were as simple as that sounds. I know folks with backlist stuff they would like to offer as ebooks, but the books date from before ebooks were even a gleam in anyone's eye, and an electronic manuscript no longer exists. A fair amount of publishing backlist is in that state, and publishers are slowly scanning, OCRing, and converting hardcopy to create the ebook files.

(A good bit of the stuff Amazon releases when they get enough clicks on the "I'd like to read this book in a Kindle edition" fits that category. There is no electronic source file, so a physical book gets sent to Hyderabad, India, when an outsourced operation scans and OCRs it, and the result becomes the Kindle edition. Proofreading and cleanup of inevitable OCR errors and formatting glitches is not done to save costs, so lots of folks complain about the quality...)

[*]No is-a-reprint-worth-it-risk-calculation so later coming/new fans will always be able to get the whole stuff / complete series (even if there will be only 18 new fans per year for a series it's still bigger than none and the series may be damn long.)

This actually leads to an additional complication.

In the old days, before ebooks and print-on-demand, the standard publishing deal was that the publisher bought a set of rights to an edition, and those rights held as long as the book was in print. If the book went out of print, the author could ask that the rights revert, and attempt to resell the book elsewhere. What does "out of print" mean when you have ebooks and print-on-demand? A publisher could potentially hold the rights forever.

Current publishing contracts take this into account, and look at levels of ebook and print on demand sales as well as sales of the original printings. If those numbers drop below a point specified in the contract, the book is considered out of print, as the low numbers are evidence the publisher is no longer actively trying to sell it. The author can ask to have the rights back, and attempt to resell it elsewhere of market it herself.

[*]Now we don't need to fear about paybacks for truckloads of books if book foobar misses absolutely bottomless bad - its just 1 file on the resellers server.

Correct. We don't. For ebooks. We do still need to worry that we guessed right on how many the book would sell, and didn't offer the sun, the moon, and the stars to get a book we thought would be a bestseller and which actually tanked. The record industry phrase "Shipped gold and returned platinum" applies to book publishing as well.

[*]Much more people may order the authors genuine language edition, who haven't bought it before, due to the shipping costs... etc.

Well, maybe. Or at least we hope so. But there are still pesky territorial rights in the way. Certain publishers will purchase the rights to offer the book in their area, and that includes the ebook rights, so you may not be allowed to purchase the native language edition because you don't live in an area where the publisher offering that edition as an ebook has the right to sell it.

ergo:embrace and promote the ebook[/I]"

what I meant ebooks are offering chances which were often too much a risk with paper.
Instead of trying to make the most of the new possibilities they seem trying to fight it.

Oh, I agree. They are turning the traditional model upside down, and everyone is peering into the crystal ball and reading the tea leaves trying to scry the future. The unknown is a scary place, and a lot of folks are doing their best to bury their heads in the sand and not deal with it.

Some won't successfully adapt and go belly up, and I expect to see more consolidation in publishing as it happens.
______
Dennis

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Correct. But in the case of a pbook, it already sold once, and the publisher collected the revenue.

In the case of a bootleg ebook, it already sold once, at some level or another. The publisher got the revenue for one sale--the issue that needs to be decided is "how many readings are reasonable for a single sale?"

I've heard estimates ranging from 6-10 on average; I haven't seen anything substantiated.

Nope. By the time a pbook hits the used bookstore market, the likelihood is that it is off the shelves in retailers. It is not competing against new copies currently on sale.

Have you looked at Amazon's used book listings? Yes, reliable used book selection at physical stores is generally after the hardcover has dropped out of print, or at least out of its initial marketing push, but online sales have changed that.

The Great House, published earlier this month--officially $24.95, Amazon price $13.99, used hardcovers from $11.95.

Do you know a way to do it? It requires that if I sell you a pre-owned ebook, I no longer have it. The value is in scarcity. If I still have it and can simply give you a copy, what incentive is there for you to pay me? It's hard for me to successfully charge you in those circumstances.

B&N came up with a way to share/exchange DRM'd ebooks, but they limited its use far below what the law allows for purchases.

For incentive: people buy WATER. In bottles. They don't just buy one bottle & refill it from the tap; they buy more bottles. The incentive to pay is immediacy & convenience; value-of-contents becomes secondary.

If authors/publishers had a way to allow "you can resell this as long as the copyright owner gets 25% of the sale," and (this is important) the process for handing over that 25% were simple and efficient, they'd *rake* those royalties. People would sell used ebooks to friends for a dollar, keep $.75, and hand a quarter to the publisher. Instead, right now they have (1) friends who don't read ebooks at all, because nobody's offering them cheap copies of the titles they're interested enough in to get used to new technology, or (2) friends who get free, cracked versions of popular titles.

Neither of these makes the publisher any money.

I don't know how to make the technology simple-and-efficient. But ten years ago the web was convinced that $1 sales would never be efficient; you just couldn't manage that many micro-transactions and make it worth the effort. PayPal changed their minds. We need an ebook equivalent. (We need it to work for music, too; plenty of people feel vaguely guilty about handing their whole collections to their friends, but not guilty enough to tell their friends to spend hundreds of dollars for an evening's worth of party music.)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've seen cases already where the paperback has been released and the price has not changed. The Agency 5 are a bunch of lying no good scam artists.

If you go back and read the post you've quoted, Jon, you'll see that I was talking about prices at Amazon UK, where there is no agency agreement. Amazon UK have a policy of consistently pricing eBooks below the cheapest paper price.

[Sil_liS]

After reading this thread I can really say that I'm happy that I don't write or publish books.
I'm romanian, but I'm doing a PhD in The Netherlands. Books cost more here but I think that I still buy as many as I did before. Obviously I would love it if they were cheaper, but I buy as many as I read.
And I'm happy that I can find books in english in most stores, since I don't speak dutch. Now the problem with being able to buy books online (which I haven't done yet) is that in theory I should be able to get any book, and not just be limited to the popular titles. But now I look at how much (or how little) other people pay for books and I feel that I deserve to pay less.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

After reading this thread I can really say that I'm happy that I don't write or publish books.
I'm romanian, but I'm doing a PhD in The Netherlands. Books cost more here but I think that I still buy as many as I did before. Obviously I would love it if they were cheaper, but I buy as many as I read.
And I'm happy that I can find books in english in most stores, since I don't speak dutch. Now the problem with being able to buy books online (which I haven't done yet) is that in theory I should be able to get any book, and not just be limited to the popular titles. But now I look at how much (or how little) other people pay for books and I feel that I deserve to pay less.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

and an electronic manuscript no longer exists. [...] publishers are slowly scanning, OCRing, and converting hardcopy to create the ebook files.

Ok, but this is stupidity from the publishers side IMHO if they don't keep backups in multiple forms (because one never knows) of stuff they (still) have rights to squeeze money from. Thus basically the whining means: "We have more costs 'cause we were dumb." I can hardly feel mercy for that.

so you may not be allowed to purchase the native language edition because you don't live in an area where the publisher offering that edition as an ebook has the right to sell it.

...where in contrary the publisher having the local rights will (most likely) offer the local language only. Again the possibilities of electronic media turned absurd. Ain't that just great?

(pre ebook-era dated contracts as legal obstacles for both author and publisher)

I agree fully. It's always and everywhere a problem when contracts still valid no longer suit the given circumstances.

No return-risk, shelf-space-fights for ebooks: yeah and I see that you see my point. I just tought that plainly because of that they should go wild from sheer happiness and do their best to introduce ebooks + the technology.

The unknown is a scary place, and a lot of folks are doing their best to bury their heads in the sand and not deal with it.

Yeah agreed, unfortunately the very same people overlook the fact, that when you put your head in the sand you put your arse up in the air. And then the only thing you are useful for may be parking a bike between the cheeks.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

"you can resell this as long as the copyright owner gets 25% of the sale,"

*shrug* well that 'd be really ripping people off. when I buy something (new) I presume everybody involved in the making has already gotten their share due to proper price calculation. The bought good is mine. So it'is no ones but my business if I gift, resale, destroy or keep it. that's the legal concept of a sale. demanding a share for transfer of good and certain (limited) rights connected to it, (remember DVD notices: no public broadcast private usage only etc.) for which you have already fully paid undermines this concept, and would practically prohibit such transactions between consuments (i.e. in opposition to a merchant-consumer-transaction)

Rethink this idea with buying a used car or furniture and ask yourself if it feels right to you.

The fact that some resellers actually do this with digital media, i.e. labelling leasing a sale and customers swallow this sh##load is a different can of worms.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

The PhD is officially in english. All courses are in english, all the conferences and workshops that I go to are in english. All the articles that are written are in english. My thesis will be in english.
The PhD is supposed to be international. In my department a little bit more than half of the students are from other countries.
People in the shops speak english and my 70yr old landlady speaks english. I didn't need to learn dutch.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Ok, but this is stupidity from the publishers side IMHO if they don't keep backups in multiple forms (because one never knows) of stuff they (still) have rights to squeeze money from. Thus basically the whining means: "We have more costs 'cause we were dumb." I can hardly feel mercy for that...

I sooo agree!

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

...unfortunately the very same people overlook the fact, that when you put your head in the sand you put your arse up in the air. And then the only thing you are useful for may be parking a bike between the cheeks...

snort... You realize I will have to steal that?

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The PhD is officially in english. All courses are in english, all the conferences and workshops that I go to are in english. All the articles that are written are in english. My thesis will be in english.
The PhD is supposed to be international. In my department a little bit more than half of the students are from other countries.
People in the shops speak english and my 70yr old landlady speaks english. I didn't need to learn dutch.

I discovered this too during my visit there. Netherlands is a good starting point for Americans visiting Europe. A chance to adjust to a different culture, currency and transport while being able to communicate freely.

Just be alert to cyclists.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Fbone

I discovered this too during my visit there. Netherlands is a good starting point for Americans visiting Europe. A chance to adjust to a different culture, currency and transport while being able to communicate freely.

Just be alert to cyclists.

Big and fat as I am, cyclists would need to be alert to me!

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Barcey

If the price is much higher then people expect to pay it's viewed as gouging or an insult. Everyone has their own level but you don't want to alienate the majority of your customers.

And the question is what will alienate the majority of your customers. This ends to be determined by trial and error. I don't assume my ideas of what constitutes a fair price are representative of what the market as a whole will pay.

Pricing is about understanding the market and what people are willing to pay. It's not about "educating the public that the price has to be higher".

Sometimes the price does have to be higher for the producer to stay in business. What do you suggest the producer do in such a case?

I've just observed a lot of anger against publishers and that's not good for the industry.

What's good for the industry is making enough money to stay in business. People have been angry at publishers (and other producers) over pricing for a long time. The fundamental question from the producer's point of view is "What do I have to charge to stay in business?" Sometimes, this number is higher than the answer to "What is the maximum my customers are willing to pay?", and the producer goes out of business.
______
Dennis

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Ok, but this is stupidity from the publishers side IMHO if they don't keep backups in multiple forms (because one never knows) of stuff they (still) have rights to squeeze money from. Thus basically the whining means: "We have more costs 'cause we were dumb." I can hardly feel mercy for that.

It's not stupidity. Having a few terabytes of storage space lying around on portable drives is a *new* thing. 10 years ago, a 50mb storage drive cost substantial money; 20 years ago, we were storing info on 5" floppies. Publishers aren't "stupid" for not having rearranged their entire archiving systems to keep up with rapidly-changing computer-based options; every year or two, the "best" format changes.

Imagine that a publisher *had* decided to keep digital backups of its entire line. They decide to reprint a 1992 book they've gotten new rights for, go into their storage room, wade through a shelf full of binders, find the 3.5" floppy with BKTITLE.pmd, and hope that today's InDesign will open Pagemaker files almost two decades old...

The bought good is mine. So it'is no ones but my business if I gift, resale, destroy or keep it. that's the legal concept of a sale. demanding a share for transfer of good and certain (limited) rights connected to it, (remember DVD notices: no public broadcast private usage only etc.) for which you have already fully paid undermines this concept, and would practically prohibit such transactions between consuments (i.e. in opposition to a merchant-consumer-transaction)

I don't believe it's legal to demand "pay the author 25% of each future sale of this book" as ebooks are currently sold. I think they could be sold/licensed under those conditions.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

go into their storage room, wade through a shelf full of binders, find the 3.5" floppy with BKTITLE.pmd, and hope that today's InDesign will open Pagemaker files almost two decades old...

a) over dramatised. It would be rather a box of 2GB tapes (you still get drives for that) if they would have been thinking at least a bit about serious backups.
b) if they d have kept the original MSfile it would most likely an .rtf
i've been told they are a long time already regarded as a lingua franca file format in publishing since they can be imported by kind of every DTP soft be it on PC mac or whatever.

I think they could be sold/licensed under those conditions.

exactly that's my fear. Isnt it what amazon does?

Well if I want to lend or lease a book, there are libraries for that.
If i go to a (re)seller, what i want is a copy+rights completely covering private use. Be it a pbook or an ebook, my expectations when going to a seller are equal. I don't regard the latter as 2nd class goods. Also I'll never be willing to pay a pbook -15% price just for lending.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

a) over dramatised. It would be rather a box of 2GB tapes (you still get drives for that) if they would have been thinking at least a bit about serious backups.
b) if they d have kept the original MSfile it would most likely an .rtf
i've been told they are a long time already regarded as a lingua franca file format in publishing since they can be imported by kind of every DTP soft be it on PC mac or whatever.

Not over dramatized at all.

I just had a conversation with a friend about such issues. She's a XML specialist. One of her clients a few years ago was agricultural equipment manufacturer John Deere. John Deere makes tractors. It's a point of pride that they build them sturdy, and that a properly maintained John Deere tractor will last for decades. And they commit to having parts, manuals, and service for them. There are still John Deere tractors made in the 1930's in use that John Deere commits to service and support.

Think about the issues involved in keeping service manuals available for vehicles made in the 1930s, when there weren't electronic files of any kind, let alone stuff published more recently.

Deere's solution (and the solution I think publishing will be dragged kicking and screaming to), was to spend the time and effort to get everything into well formed XML. This meant scan, OCR, and proofread stuff only available in hardcopy, as well as transformations on stuff that had some form of electronic copy. Once it's all in XML, you can use XSLT to do transformations and get the data into a different format for end use.

And whoever told you RTF files are lingua franca is behind the times. Yes, RTF files have the advantage of portability. It is, after all, a text based format, and if you have to, you can diddle the underlying formatting commands in a text editor. And many things out there understand RTF.

But what publishing does nowadays is get Word documents, work on those till an approved final version is created, then import that into InDesign for typesetting and markup. The output from InDesign is normally a PDF file that goes the the printer. The printer feeds the PDF to an imagesetter that creates the plates from which the book will be printed.

Which of those three formats do you think the publisher should archive?

If you archive the Word document, you retain the text but sacrifice the formatting. If you retain the InDesign file, you keep the formatting but risk obsolescence if the underlying InDesign format gets changes in newer versions, or if something else replaces InDesign. If you keep the PDF, you introduce problems in trying to modify the existing document. (And if you try to keep all three, I guarantee they will get separated somewhere along the way, and the one that went missing is the one you need to get.)

XML has the advantage of being a standard, so you can assume there will be more than one toolset that can create, edit and transform it and you won't be locked into one vendor of the tools, and it's an intermediate format that can be used to generate the desired output formats.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Ok, but this is stupidity from the publishers side IMHO if they don't keep backups in multiple forms (because one never knows) of stuff they (still) have rights to squeeze money from. Thus basically the whining means: "We have more costs 'cause we were dumb." I can hardly feel mercy for that.

Consider some of the stuff Amazon offers in paper versions. There are still books in print written in the days when the author wrote on a manual typewriter, and sent a box of pages to the publisher, who marked them up and sent the marked up copy to a typesetter who rekeyed it into something like a linotype machine to produce the typeset galleys from which the printers would make plates. What electronic backups? The backup is the hardcopy.

No return-risk, shelf-space-fights for ebooks: yeah and I see that you see my point. I just tought that plainly because of that they should go wild from sheer happiness and do their best to introduce ebooks + the technology.

There will be no sheer happiness unless they can see a way to do it and make money.

Yeah agreed, unfortunately the very same people overlook the fact, that when you put your head in the sand you put your arse up in the air. And then the only thing you are useful for may be parking a bike between the cheeks.

And some of them will get just that. As I said, I expect more consolidation in publishing.
______
Dennis