Chinese Kindle clone: Meet WeFound

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Oh, 了 LE is being used all the time. Well, you can argue either way here. I, personally, wouldn't really call it a GRAMMATICAL past tense, since only the presence of a single word turns it into past tense. Just like European languages have only remnants of tonality (tick and teak would be an example of tonal variations of the same word in English), this past tense is very, very rudimentary. Nothing changes, just a word indicates past or future. Compare adding a simple LE 了or GUO 過 to what the Germans are doing -- 5 different verb forms for each tense! As far as I am aware, in your example, the 了 only tells you that it is in the past, it is the rest of the sentence (learning being an ongoing process) that makes it clear that it is continuing into the present. Seems the present perfect is inferred rather than expressed through a grammatical construction. If you say "我去過了" "I have been there", then no relationship to the present is established with the very same structure. Of course, in Chinese you are able to get that same meaning accross without all that structural baggage! Anyway, I am no linguist, so I am just expressing my thoughts on this.

In the example I gave, the first sentence with only one 了 considers ambiguously that the event may or may not be completed. The second sentence with two 了 very unambiguously defines the activity as ongoing into the current moment and into at least the immediate future. Few people use the latter, even when it is called for. Some English will chide Americans for absently using the simple past tense while referring to events in an uncompleted day, e.g. "what did you do today?" at 16:00, rather than the appropriate present perfect tense. Does not mean the convention doesn't exist, it simply means it's not used in given environments.

The use of 了 is quite fascinating, and not as simple as defining a change or past activity. The word 過 is not quite as complex as 了 in proper modern usage, and is certainly not interchangeable except in "low-level" colloquialisms. It's the sort of thing purists may frown on...like when people use 不行 instead of 不能 prior to a verb, or pronouncing 角色 as "jiao se"...I hear things like that all the time, and--thanks to being corrupted by my teachers--despite my attempts at being impartial and open-minded to language as a linguist should be, I often find my skin crawling.

The primary reason the colloquial grammar is so loose in society isn't because it isn't formulated, but rather because regional variance and dialectical "pollution" (not intended negatively) influence the output so significantly.

Of course, the language is as people use it, and since it defies formal rules in many places, one always needs to consider whether it's the usage that's wrong, or the rules that are.

[delphidb96]

I love how this thread has morphed into a discussion of the complexities of printing/reading/writing in Chinese.

Derek

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by ahi

Ok, so it's the attitudal component (is that a word/phrase?) that makes "foreign devil" a more appropriate translation?

- Ahi

Ambiguity is one of the characteristics that translators have a love-hate relationship with in Chinese. It underscores certain ideological incongruities between what we think of as "Western" cultures, heavily defined and influenced by Greek philosophy, and what used to be called "Oriental" cultures (though most students of Asian Studies have to read Edward Said's "Orientalism" to cleanse themselves of that word and its inherent fallacy and racism).

I'm not certain where you're from, but I'll try to use an American analogy that has logical flaws but still gives a sense of how it can be interpreted.

Imagine a convenience store in Nebraska (a bit of irony there). There are 10 customers, one clerk, and another worker stocking aisles. One of the customers is a man of profound color, while the rest are of a more alabaster persuasion, and all are standing near the counter. The black man asks the clerk if they have any lubricious latex anatomy enclosures named after a famous Greek city that evokes images of a large wooden horse. The clerk yells back to his colleague "the black gentleman wants to know if we have any lubricious latex anatomy enclosures".

Same situation, different wording: "a black gentleman wants to know if we have any lubricious latex anatomy enclosures".

The articles "the" and "a" can carry significantly different semantic values. Sensitivity is more subjective and variable. As you may know, Chinese lacks these articles altogether, as well as many other things like plurals and countable/uncountable variations or the manifold arbitrary prepositions that nevertheless contain value in English.

I don't translate 鬼佬 as "foreign devil", though it can be used in such a way, and it does sometimes roll off the tongue in a way that emanates disdain. Even the simple and generally matter-of-fact 外國人 waiguoren or casual 老外 laowai can be used in such a way. I think the "foreign devil" is more a translation of convention and history, rather than one of direct semantic accuracy. Racism, whether manifest negatively or positively (in the form of racial sycophancy), is rampant in this part of the world, though when I think of many of the foreigners I know here in East Asia, I am often surprised the negative attitudes aren't more common. We minorities often lean one direction when interpreting the ambiguity presented by the language. I myself am fairly sensitive to it, and whenever someone unnecessarily refers to me as a foreigner, I get mildly offended. When done with casual slurs (again, political correctness isn't really important here), I'm even more likely to take it negatively, even if the statement was done without implied negativity. I certainly know better, but my individuality is trampled nevertheless as I am clumped, for better or for worse, with all other people who were born somewhere else, and the potential stereotypes thereof.

Oh and thanks Derek for the reminder. I almost forgot the title of the thread

[ProDigit]

Whoa! This article has become almost an entire Language article instead of a WeFound article

Perhaps from here we can unify the world into Latin! lol!

It'd be so much easier if the whole world would speak English, no? (seeing that chinese takes so long to learn!)

[ahi]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

It'd be so much easier if the whole world would speak English, no? (seeing that chinese takes so long to learn!)

I think natural anglophones would fairly soon find themselves at the short-end of the stick after such an arrangement.

- Ahi

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by ahi

Ok, so it's the attitudal component (is that a word/phrase?) that makes "foreign devil" a more appropriate translation?

- Ahi

Yes, it is closely related to the 洋鬼子, which would be the Mandarin equivalent. 洋 standing for "Western" in this case. The word ghost carries only strong negative meanings, nothing positive about it.The use of "老" LAO or the more traditional, but in this case equivalent "佬", in this way (i.e. somebody and LAO) is always a strongly derogative term. It is, for example also used in "湖北佬", a slur used to deride people from Hubei province, sometimes used in mainland China. If you say that to someone from Hubei, you will start a fight. And the word GHOST combined with LAO, there is no way even LDBoblo (well meaning as he is, hehe) can whitewash this obvious racial slur. That does not mean that every Hong Konger wants to insult Westerners. But it is an extreme example of insensitivity, so pervasive in a place that depends on tourist income, that the users don't even feel it is wrong.

So why is it better translated as "foreign devil" or "Western devil"? The term as is is only applied to Westerners, it would never be applied to a Japanese, Koreans, or South East Asians, for example. So it is the cultural back ground that implies the real meaning of "foreign devil". Sure, even the proper term for foreigners "外國人" can be used as an insult (just as in English you could say "oh those foreigners!") but it carries no inherent negative meaning, like the mentioned phrase.

Yes, in general, being a Westerner in Asia is quite a positive experience. Otherwise, how would I have stayed around for so long?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

It'd be so much easier if the whole world would speak English, no? (seeing that chinese takes so long to learn!)

Given that 1/5th of the world's population speak Chinese you would most likely be learning Chinese anyway, if the world was unified under one language!

It is kind of fun, how a thread can morph into something else. Now it is becoming a second rant and vent thread.

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Given that 1/5th of the world's population speak Chinese you would most likely be learning Chinese anyway, if the world was unified under one language!

It is kind of fun, how a thread can morph into something else. Now it is becoming a second rant and vent thread.

I have NO problem with learning Chinese! However, as I live in California (and everyone knows how litigious people are in this state) and am disabled (mentally and emotionally) from years of self-abuse through listening to the Michael Savage show, I will have to demand that EVERY SINGLE NATIVE speaker of Chinese make *massive* allowances for my improper pronunciation and grammar! (Otherwise I'll have to sue China under the Americans with Disabilities Act.)

Derek

[HansTWN]

You know what happens when a Westerner sues in China. You will win, then get a pat on the back, a free bowl of rice, and a "I sure will never do it again, hehehe".

[Stensie4JC]

I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage in the discussion of characters because my work computer can't read Chinese. I can read some characters, but here I can only see little weird squares : (

Originally Posted by HansTWN

The word ghost carries only strong negative meanings, nothing positive about it.

That does not mean that every Hong Konger wants to insult Westerners. But it is an extreme example of insensitivity, so pervasive in a place that depends on tourist income, that the users don't even feel it is wrong.

So why is it better translated as "foreign devil" or "Western devil"? The term as is is only applied to Westerners, it would never be applied to a Japanese, Koreans, or South East Asians, for example. So it is the cultural back ground that implies the real meaning of "foreign devil". Sure, even the proper term for foreigners "外國人" can be used as an insult (just as in English you could say "oh those foreigners!") but it carries no inherent negative meaning, like the mentioned phrase.

Yes, in general, being a Westerner in Asia is quite a positive experience. Otherwise, how would I have stayed around for so long?

It may seem strange that "old ghost" means "foreign devil," but we have to remember how flexible words can be. Teaching in China, it's hard to explain all the ways we use "up" in English: lock up, bring up a child, bring up a topic, set up a meeting, stop up a bottle, and of course, go up the stairs. Being called an old ghost may not seem particularly insulting, but the connotations of "ghost" in Chinese culture are different than in western culture. The Chinese are very superstitious about death and all things related to it.

Examples of other words with different connotations than in American culture: sweet potato means you're ditzy; bus, old shoe, or chicken mean you are what my mother would call a loose woman; and if you really want to piss someone off, call them a perineum.

I think any term that is used to separate people into groups, especially based on something like race or national origin, can be considered derogatory. It took me a long time in China to get over being called "foreigner." Children (and adults) shout it at you in the street, especially if you go where few white people have gone before. I usually ignore adults, but with children I point back at them and shout, "Chinese!"

And delphidb96, you can speak Chinese as incorrectly as you like. They won't mind, they just won't know what on earth you are saying. You can butcher English pretty bad and still be understood, but Chinese, with "no grammar" so many homonyms, and those frustrating tones, even a "small" mistake can render you unintelligible.

[HansTWN]

a good example of completely different connotations for the same thing in the Western world and in Asia is the dragon. The Western dragon is an animal that wreaks havoc and destruction. In Asia the dragon brings fortune and happiness.

[flashpig]

I am not sure whether Amazon will start a lawsuit.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by Stensie4JC

I think any term that is used to separate people into groups, especially based on something like race or national origin, can be considered derogatory. It took me a long time in China to get over being called "foreigner." Children (and adults) shout it at you in the street, especially if you go where few white people have gone before. I usually ignore adults, but with children I point back at them and shout, "Chinese!"

Despite being white as a bloody vampire, I only occasionally have people point me out as a foreigner. I remember when it first happened and I thought I was being amiable when I looked around surprised said "where?!" until I recalled that sarcasm is a bit of a lost cause in Chinese.

And delphidb96, you can speak Chinese as incorrectly as you like. They won't mind, they just won't know what on earth you are saying. You can butcher English pretty bad and still be understood, but Chinese, with "no grammar" so many homonyms, and those frustrating tones, even a "small" mistake can render you unintelligible.

It's not so much that it's unintelligible...it's more that Chinese folks won't bother to try piecing it together. I've had to decode some pretty horrid Chinese spoken by foreigners, and mistakes in Chinese are not really any harder to decode than those in English, except in the case of isolated syllables or individual words on occasion. With the exception of some of the better Chinese teachers I've met, most Chinese don't decode language mistakes particularly well. Of course, most native English speakers I know don't always decode Chinglish well either.

I have more than once found myself translating a foreigner's broken Chinese to functional Chinese for Chinese folks who wouldn't even attempt to listen, just passing it off as English or some other language they don't understand. Figuring it out isn't a magical gift, but rather just a willingness to consider what kinds of mistakes are likely. Seems rare enough though to be magic sometimes.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Despite being white as a bloody vampire, I only occasionally have people point me out as a foreigner. I remember when it first happened and I thought I was being amiable when I looked around surprised said "where?!" until I recalled that sarcasm is a bit of a lost cause in Chinese.

In that case, you should shout,

"A foreign devil? Let's invite him for a hearty lunch, Comrades, and while he eats explain to him all about this road we walk to better socialist tomorrow!"

If you are ever bold enough to try, do let me know how it went!

- Ahi

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by ahi

In that case, you should shout,

"A foreign devil? Let's invite him for a hearty lunch, Comrades, and while he eats explain to him all about this road we walk to better socialist tomorrow!"

If you are ever bold enough to try, do let me know how it went!

- Ahi

Sorry, you are way behind the times. China is the most rabidly capitalist country on this earth. Money making and free enterprise is king -- with good connections the basis to being successful. Communism existed under Mao, and died somewhere in the early to mid 80's. A capitalist by any other name is still a capitalist.