Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Nobody has ever claimed that the page number has any connection whatsoever to the number of page turns on the eink device. Its sole purpose is to tell you the corresponding page number in the paper book. Far from useless if you want to provide a reference to a position in the book.

Actually, JSWolf seems to be fairly convinced for inexplicable reasons that page numbers have a second use. Probably "figuring out how far in the book you have read so far".
In fact, he is so convinced that he is even trying to make other people agree that it is the best way. Or maybe just an awesome, amazing, wonderful way that is worthy of drowning out anyone trying to mention something else which is pretty much the same thing.

So... not just academic citations and misc. references I guess. At least according to JSWolf.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Nobody has ever claimed that the page number has any connection whatsoever to the number of page turns on the eink device. Its sole purpose is to tell you the corresponding page number in the paper book. Far from useless if you want to provide a reference to a position in the book.

I will concede to your point sort of.
The sort of is if there is only paper book version. Otherwise what is on page 100 in one version may be on page 110 or 90 in another version.

Hence my dear professor, that is why we were all taught to reference a specific edition of a book.
But I still say for just reading, page numbers are not very useful on devices.
Yes, they would be useful if I was writing an academic paper.

[Dazrin]

I like that Amazon's version of the ADE "page number", the "location", is not called a page number. ADE page numbers are confusing since people tend to equate them to printed pages when they actually have nothing to do with them. They are both useful as references though and the ADE page, since it is closer in length to printed pages, might give a somewhat accurate "gut feel" for how long a book is, but they aren't really useful for anything other than being a reference point for citations or to get someone to the same spot as you in a file.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I will concede to your point sort of.
The sort of is if there is only paper book version. Otherwise what is on page 100 in one version may be on page 110 or 90 in another version.

Hence my dear professor, that is why we were all taught to reference a specific edition of a book.
But I still say for just reading, page numbers are not very useful on devices.
Yes, they would be useful if I was writing an academic paper.

Although I don't have a Kindle I voted because I do consider page numbers somewhat important, especially when it comes to reference books. I have a pbook (Carpenters - Album by Album: Song by Song by Rick Henry) that doesn't feature a table of contents or page number (it looks like they took an ebook and just printed it). It's a very informative and entertaining book, but the lack of page numbers and a table of contents makes it difficult to find a specific album or song and I end up having to flip around the book until I reach the information I'm looking for.

When it comes to ebooks, I've wondered if a good alternative to page numbers would be paragraph numbers (which could be displayed or hidden)? Since paragraphs wouldn't be affected by the formatting of an ebook it would offer a consistent way to refer to a specific location in the ebook (tonight's reading assignment is to read A Tale Of Two Cities, paragraphs 1520 to 1700).

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Nobody has ever claimed that the page number has any connection whatsoever to the number of page turns on the eink device. Its sole purpose is to tell you the corresponding page number in the paper book. Far from useless if you want to provide a reference to a position in the book.

Although for Kobo devices with kepub files, the page count is the same as the number of page turns to reach the end of chapter. It recalculates if you change the font or spacing.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by latepaul

Although for Kobo devices with kepub files, the page count is the same as the number of page turns to reach the end of chapter. It recalculates if you change the font or spacing.

Sure - there are lots of devices which display screen-based page numbers. I was referring specifically to be pagemap-type page numbers in Kindle books that Cin was talking about, which are specifically a map to the physical pages of a particular edition of a corresponding printed book.

[ApK]

I dislike the idea of trying to map paper artifacts to electronic books when electronic books can accomplish the same functions in a different, and better, way.

Rather than having to use page numbers from some edition I'm not reading, I'd far rather see the edition I'm reading have more meaningful and usable position references and/or links.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

I dislike the idea of trying to map paper artifacts to electronic books when electronic books can accomplish the same functions in a different, and better, way.

Rather than having to use page numbers from some edition I'm not reading, I'd far rather see the edition I'm reading have more meaningful and usable position references and/or links.

For referencing purposes you need to have some kind of positioning system that someone else can follow to reach the same point in the book, so that rules out screen-count-based numbering, since that depends on your personal choice of font size, and the screen size of the device you happen to be reading it on.

Once you rule that out, and you're into a regime of numbering which is not based on the number of page turns, why not use the page numbers of a paper edition? It's as good a choice as any, and means that the person who wants to look up your reference isn't restricted to your choice of reading device or app.

It's an obvious thing to say, of course, but (unlike a paper book) an ebook isn't restricted to a single method of showing your position. There's no reason at all that an ebook can't show paper-edition page numbers for referencing purposes, while at the same time having alternatives available for use in gauging your progress through the book. Eg, a Kindle can show page numbers, percentage read, "location" (a character-based count), and time to the end of the current chapter or the end of the book. You don't have to stick to a single progress method!

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You don't have to stick to a single progress method!

Indeed.
There are two mechanisms I thought would be especially generally useful:
1. Include in future ebooks formats a method of automatically converting from absolute byte count or internal data identifier to the host device's location format.
2. Refer to text, not to arbitrary positional markers. Rather than page numbers, e-editions could refer to section titles, first sentences, etc. The search feature makes that practical, and possibly easier to use.

I do appreciate that if e-editions are to be used along side print editions of a particular version of the book, like in a classroom, then it makes sense for one of the options to be the page reference of the print edition.

I reject the notion of needing literal page numbers for external published citations. They change from edition to edition anyway, any page number you give requires specifying the edition, and would, presumably, requiter a fact-checker to seek out that edition, so you might as well cite using, say, the Kindle location, and specify that as your edition.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

I reject the notion of needing literal page numbers for external published citations. They change from edition to edition anyway, any page number you give requires specifying the edition, and would, presumably, requiter a fact-checker to seek out that edition, so you might as well cite using, say, the Kindle location, and specify that as your edition.

The standard used for academic referencing by pretty much everyone is called the "Harvard Referencing System", and that does require page numbers. In your text you say, for example:

"It is a well-established fact that Egyptian pyramids were built by aliens [Jones 2000, p.125]"

and then in your list of references:

Jones, P.D.Q. (2000). Who built the Egyptian Pyramids? Cambridge University Press.

So, as you see, the reference specifies the precise edition. This is of course not an issue for the overwhelming majority of referencing, given that references are generally to non-fiction sources which are normally only published by a single publisher, so the issue of multiple alternative editions rarely arises.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The standard used for academic referencing by pretty much everyone is called the "Harvard Referencing System", and that does require page numbers. In your text you say, for example:

"It is a well-established fact that Egyptian pyramids were built by aliens [Jones 2000, p.125]"

and then in your list of references:

Jones, P.D.Q. (2000). Who built the Egyptian Pyramids? Cambridge University Press.

So, as you see, the reference specifies the precise edition. This is of course not an issue for the overwhelming majority of referencing, given that references are generally to non-fiction sources which are normally only published by a single publisher, so the issue of multiple alternative editions rarely arises.

Interesting,
I had always been told use either MLA or APA formatting for referencing. Though the both look close to what you did, but the page number would be on the reference page. And just a small number by the reference in the paper.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Interesting,
I had always been told use either MLA or APA formatting for referencing. Though the both look close to what you did, but the page number would be on the reference page. And just a small number by the reference in the paper.

That sounds inconvenient when you have multiple references to different pages of the same book in your text. As you rightly say, there are different referencing systems out there, but I reckon the Harvard system is the most common, certainly in academic publications. Possibly the systems you mentioned (which I've not personally come across) are used in different fields?

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That sounds inconvenient when you have multiple references to different pages of the same book in your text. As you rightly say, there are different referencing systems out there, but I reckon the Harvard system is the most common, certainly in academic publications. Possibly the systems you mentioned (which I've not personally come across) are used in different fields?

When I was working on my Masters and Ph.D in English, all work had to be created following the MLA style guide.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

When I was working on my Masters and Ph.D in English, all work had to be created following the MLA style guide.

Interesting - thanks. I guess it varies by institution. If you write a paper for a specific journal or academic publisher, they'll always tell you what referencing system they require you to use.

Edit: just looked at the MLA system, and it seems to be extremely similar to the Harvard system. The main difference appears to be that Harvard requires you to include a year of publication in your textual reference, and MLA doesn't.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Interesting - thanks. I guess it varies by institution. If you write a paper for a specific journal or academic publisher, they'll always tell you what referencing system they require you to use.

IIRC: MLA was English and APA was psychology.
Also I do believe their was a unique way that you had to reference the internet. You couldn't just copy and paste the reference into a word document.