Would you delete a copy of the Koran?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

The only reason we are having this thread is because of there being people who would become violent in response to their religious book being burnt. And I'm figuring that a lot more than half of that crowd also disagree with evolution.

At its worst, the Bible is as bad as the Quran. But the average page of the Quran seems, to me, to incite hostility towards those outside the religion a lot more often than the average page of the Bible. I just did a web search with randomly chosen translations, and found that the word hell appears 14 times in the Bible (New International Version) but 97 times in the much shorter Quran (M.H. Shakir translation), providing objective support for my subjective impression.

It seems to me that eternal torture is at least as bad as temporary torture here on earth. Don't get me wrong about the issue, through. Even repetitive, poorly organized, books advocating torture should nonetheless go unburnt and (if the motive is spite) undeleted. And of course there are vast numbers of Muslims who find the Quran a much more humanitarian book than I do, and act in accordance with its nicer themes.

You're right about the NIV, and it's interesting that 12 of those 14 instances of the word are attributed to Jesus. It brings to mind what Lord Russell wrote about the moral character of Jesus in one of his essays:

.....There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person that is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment.
..........— Bertrand Russell, (1872 – 1970), British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, author. "Why I Am Not a Christian" (1927).

However, in the King James Version (the Version preferred by many fundamentalists) there are 53 instances of the word "hell" (many are probably mistranslations). Still far fewer than in the much shorter Qur'an, however. It is striking just how often and in what detail eternal punishments are depicted in the Qur'an.

[happy_terd]

How about if you were living somewhere that the law of the land states you should die if you don't believe and follow what is in a religious book?

Can you burn it or delete it then without the peer guilt?


If I was forced into a religion I would fight back and make as many statements as I could. At least burning a book to make a statement is better than beheading an innocent person.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

However, in the King James Version (the Version preferred by many fundamentalists) there are 53 instances of the word "hell." Still far fewer than in the much shorter Qur'an, however. It is striking just how often eternal punishments are depicted in the Qur'an.

I think the old testament preferred more immediate and earthly forms of punishments, and these are not lacking, it seems to me with my poor knowledge of these matters. Examples that come to mind are the Flood (is that the term? I mean the episode with Noah's ark) or Sodom and Gomorrah's fate, the plagues of Egypt... not to mention random cruelty such as what happened to Job.

[WT Sharpe]

I would never burn anyone's religious book, no matter how much I disagreed with it. If you can't convince someone to your way of thinking by engaging them in discussion, you surely won't win their hearts and minds by burning their book. Sometimes it's better just to agree to disagree. Book burning is disrespectful.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I would never burn anyone's religious book, no matter how much I disagreed with it. If you can't convince someone to your way of thinking by engaging them in discussion, you surely won't win their hearts and minds by burning their book. Sometimes it's better just to agree to disagree. Book burning is disrespectful.

Whilst I generally agree, there are places in this world where the punishment for apostasy is the death penalty. In such places there is no possibility of convincing them that it is wrong to kill someone because they have sought to give up a religion. Against such a regime, burning a book seems to pale to nothing, but it may be the only action that is available to those who live under such conditions.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by TGS

Whilst I generally agree, there are places in this world where the punishment for apostasy is the death penalty. In such places there is no possibility of convincing them that it is wrong to kill someone because they have sought to give up a religion. Against such a regime, burning a book seems to pale to nothing, but it may be the only action that is available to those who live under such conditions.

Agreed. There should be no compulsion in religion. To imprison someone's conscience is a far greater crime against humanity than burning a book.

[happy_terd]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I would never burn anyone's religious book, no matter how much I disagreed with it. If you can't convince someone to your way of thinking by engaging them in discussion, you surely won't win their hearts and minds by burning their book. Sometimes it's better just to agree to disagree. Book burning is disrespectful.

Is it ok to burn a religious book in protest if you are forced into it? Some countries do not have freedom of religion.


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I think the bottom line is that "sometimes" it is ok to burn a book in protest. I think a lot of us are intellectuals that never actually been over there to witness a woman being beaten in public for not obeying. When "god" is the law of the land then it as bad as Nazi Germany.

I would say "Burn the bible" also if we still lived in the times where it was ok to stone someone for such odd offenses. When was the last time any other place / religion killed three young men for being gay???

Any homosexuals here? It doesnt make you mad enough to burn the stupid book knowing that you would be put to death the those countries. I don't get it?

Christians did the same thing 100 years ago but that isnt a fair comparison or a good enough justification. It is one thing to believe in a "man in the sky" and it is a total different animal to keep up the witch hunts and stoning in his name.


Burning a book does not make things right, but it sure as hell makes a statement. This isnt Hitler's time where a book can actually be gotten rid of. It does absolutely no harm except anger those who are weak minded enough to actually give a crap.

[FlorenceArt]

I don't feel like burning a book on principle, and I would certainly not do it if it put my life in danger. Supposing I had the courage to protest, I would choose to do it in a more direct and unequivocal way, like saying "It's evil to kill someone because of their sexual conduct". But more likely, I would just keep my opinions to myself like most people. I'm just grateful I am in a position to discuss these things freely, and even to burn a book should such a stupid fancy seize me.

[happy_terd]

Some of us been to these countries where the religious slavery is as bad as what we did to the blacks not too long ago. I am not against Islam, I am against any place that forces religion in general.

I am simply saying that under certain circumstances it is ok to burn a book. If I was forced into a religion because it was the law of the land I would burn every copy I came across. I would fight and shed blood for my freedom of religion. He who sits back deserves to stay a slave.

[TGS]

But it's worth remembering that this discussion started in response to the pastor bloke who was advocating burning the Koran as a statement against Islam. All the possible justifications that I and others have mooted for burning a copy of the Koran do not hold in that instance - that seems to be a clear case of religious bigotry and hatred.

[DevonSnow]

I'd remove it from my liseuse, after reading it, or as soon as I realize that the murderer is the butler.

It's a book. I like reading mythology books, they help me understand the troubles and the stories of the people behind them. I can share with them a lot, mostly the unspoken details, and I look for their version of the same, old stories that every religious book rewrites, with different names, different places, on a land that is not vast enough to separate us all.
Let's try to free ourselves from restrictions, gravity is already enough.
Let's not create our own.

[astra]

Originally Posted by TGS

But it's worth remembering that this discussion started in response to the pastor bloke who was advocating burning the Koran as a statement against Islam. All the possible justifications that I and others have mooted for burning a copy of the Koran do not hold in that instance - that seems to be a clear case of religious bigotry and hatred.

On the other hand.
When I heard about the pastor's wont to do it, I thoughts:...uhm. Why? It is not worth it, by doing it you would be no better than people you oppose to. Don't do it.
However, when I have seen their reaction to it, I thought: WOW! It was worth at least to demonstrate to the whole world what a bunch of rabid creatures we are dealing with.

Burning Koran. Most certainly would be unpleasant and even offensive to religious Muslims. They are entitled/a have right to dislike the person who has done it, his religion or even the country where it happened. Burn the Bible, flags...they do it anyway.
No. They prefer the fear, intimidation. Many people were against burning it not because they thought it is wrong or offensive but because they were scared sh1tl3ss of what Muslims will do to retaliate. Suicide bombings, terrorist acts, etc. Is it a civilised behaviour in 21th century? They almost achieved their goal. Scare the world. Scare people even on their own soil to say a wrong word and express publicly wrong idea, otherwise fatwa is on the go.
Is it the world we live in?

[TGS]

Winding up some crazy people - whose response can be predicted so it's not really flushing them out - does not seem to justify alienating millions of non-jihadist Muslims who really do want to live peacefully.

[astra]

Originally Posted by TGS

Winding up some crazy people - whose response can be predicted so it's not really flushing them out - does not seem to justify alienating millions of non-jihadist Muslims who really do want to live peacefully.

They should not be alienated. Just because one pastor wants to do it, doesn't mean all Americans agree with him, does it?

[Pomtroll]

I read the Koran about 30 years ago. It was not much different than reading other religious texts for me.