iPad Why Flash Is Fundamentally Flawed On Touchscreen Devices

[dmaul1114]

Yep, it will all come down to what sites you visit, what you do on the net etc. If you're not frequenting sites that make heavy use of flash, you won't notice it. If you are frequenting sites that use flash heavily, it will be a pain for you.

[paulckennedy]

Originally Posted by Tamara

I've had my iPhone for almost 2 years now and I haven't missed flash at all.

So it is your view that users will expect their iPhone eexperience on the iPad?

Personally I am more willing to give up things like flash on something I will use on the web occasionally. Seeing that the iPad is designed to put the web for front with it big screen, I expect an augmented desktop experience. The iPad doesn't do thatjust like the eDGe misses that point right now. The difference is that the eDGe actually multitasks all of its applications and Flash 10.1 is available for Android 2.1 which is in the future for the eDGe.

I will be playing with the iPad when it comes out and it is tentatively on my christmas list. Unfortunately though I have the eDGe in my hands now so I know what limits I will have with the iPad. My christmas plans are not in concrete for sure.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Tamara

I've had my iPhone for almost 2 years now and I haven't missed flash at all.

Well, many of the major sites normally done in Flash, will default to a Lite version for mobile devices. So, you may not even have a a clue about what you are missing.

Most people don't use the 3.2" screen of their phone as the main means of browsing the web. But the iPad, with its 9.7" screen, claims web browsing as one of its main purposes, and it claims that it is the best way to browse. "Hands down," as the ad says.

But, without Flash, it ain't the best. In fact, for most who are used to browsing on a desktop, it ain't adequate at all.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by paulckennedy

So it is your view that users will expect their iPhone eexperience on the iPad?

Personally I am more willing to give up things like flash on something I will use on the web occasionally. Seeing that the iPad is designed to put the web for front with it big screen, I expect an augmented desktop experience. The iPad doesn't do thatjust like the eDGe misses that point right now. The difference is that the eDGe actually multitasks all of its applications and Flash 10.1 is available for Android 2.1 which is in the future for the eDGe.

I will be playing with the iPad when it comes out and it is tentatively on my christmas list. Unfortunately though I have the eDGe in my hands now so I know what limits I will have with the iPad. My christmas plans are not in concrete for sure.

On my Macbook, I have clicktoflash installed so I don't have to deal with flash. I just don't find that flash enhances my web browsing experience.

Youtube now offers an HTML5 option in place of Flash for watching their videos and rumor has it that Hulu is working on an app for the iPad that won't use Flash.

I wasn't aware that Adobe has officially released flash for Android. All I've seen is some demo videos and I have my doubts that the real user experience will be as smooth as Adobe's demos show.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Well, many of the major sites normally done in Flash, will default to a Lite version for mobile devices. So, you may not even have a a clue about what you are missing.

Please don't be patronizing. I go to the exact same sites on my iPhone that I go to on my Mac. I know exactly what is there and what is not. Have you ever actually used an iPhone beyond playing with one in a store for 10 minutes.

But, without Flash, it ain't the best. In fact, for most who are used to browsing on a desktop, it ain't adequate at all.

For you, it is not adequate but many of us survive just fine without dealing with flash.

[paulckennedy]

To each his own which is the way it should be.

I just can see the ads in the future which show the Apple web and Flash enabled web. I can't wait to see Apple try to show that the Apple web is the only way to go when you truely show how less functional it will be.

It will be fun theatre. Btw if Flash is so bad then why doesn't Apple disable Flash on all of their hardware and even discontinue allowing Flash to be built on their products?

[jibril]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yep, it will all come down to what sites you visit, what you do on the net etc. If you're not frequenting sites that make heavy use of flash, you won't notice it. If you are frequenting sites that use flash heavily, it will be a pain for you.

I believe so too.

[Crowl]

Originally Posted by Tamara

I've had my iPhone for almost 2 years now and I haven't missed flash at all.

I think most people when they come to use a tablet are going to expect a browsing experience that is much closer to the one they get on their computer than they do on their phone, which for most people would mean either flash or the option to enable flash when needed for the more net-savvy.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by Crowl

I think most people when they come to use a tablet are going to expect a browsing experience that is much closer to the one they get on their computer than they do on their phone, which for most people would mean either flash or the option to enable flash when needed for the more net-savvy.

In other words, people who need to place silly games or watch video in place of actually reading the attached articles .

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Tamara

In other words, people who need to place silly games or watch video in place of actually reading the attached articles .

Speaking of patronizing....

Tamara, using clicktoflash automatically put you in a pretty small minority of often fringe users. There are so many sites which use Flash, virtually everyone who browses for more than a few minutes, will run across a few every day. Flash is used by almost all major newspapers, magazines, TV networks, and countless of other sites.

If you are happy with the CliffsNotes version of the web, fine. But most of us expect to be able to have full internet access on a device which claims to offer "the best web experience."

If you look at the devices I list in my profile, you'll notice that I have 2 iPhones 3G S. I have had an iPhone since v.1, thus I am well acquainted with its capabilities. And yes, I do know that a lot of major sites present a Lite version on the iPhone, while for most other users they present a much richer Flash experience.

I don't use the iPhone as my main browsing device and neither do most other users, so the lack of Flash is not as crucial there, as it would be on the iPad.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Tamara

In other words, people who need to place silly games or watch video in place of actually reading the attached articles .

That's pretty patronizing/condescending.

Outside of forums, I don't do a lot of reading online as I don't like sitting a computer/laptop and reading. I'll skim some newspaper articles, and that's about it. If I want to do any real reading, it's on my Kindle or paper. Or on a future tablet like the iPad as it's the poor form factor for reading that makes me hate reading on desktops or laptops--not the screens.

Otherwise I'm researching stuff for work, and printing out things to read, goofing on forums, watching videos (not just news/sports highlights, but full TV shows, movie trailers etc.).

In any case, not need to insult people who's net usage habits differ from your own.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

That's pretty patronizing/condescending.

Outside of forums, I don't do a lot of reading online as I don't like sitting a computer/laptop and reading. I'll skim some newspaper articles, and that's about it. If I want to do any real reading, it's on my Kindle or paper. Or on a future tablet like the iPad as it's the poor form factor for reading that makes me hate reading on desktops or laptops--not the screens.

Otherwise I'm researching stuff for work, and printing out things to read, goofing on forums, watching videos (not just news/sports highlights, but full TV shows, movie trailers etc.).

In any case, not need to insult people who's net usage habits differ from your own.

Funny how it's okay for someone to insult me and you don't say boo but the minute I voice my opinion concerning flash, the flash lovers jump all over me about being insulting and condescending.

[dmaul1114]

Where did anyone insult you? I certain didn't.

I have no problems with people who don't need Flash--why would I care about another's web use needs?. Some people just go too far with defending the drawbacks of Apple's products, just like they did with cut and paste on the iPhone etc.

Apple has a lot of fanboys/girls who aren't willing to let people have negative opinions of missing features etc.--not saying you are one per se, just that's the tone of many of these posts by people who think it's silly that Flash is a big deal to some us just because their beloved Apple gadget is perfect in their eyes.

And I'm not Flash lover. I bluntly couldn't give a flying f*** what software I'm using, what brand my equipment is etc. I just want stuff to work for my specific uses. And currently a lot of websites I visit daily use a lot of Flash so I can't use the internet the way I normally do on a device that doesn't support it. That's the only interest/"love" I have for Flash.

You don't frequent flash heavy sites, and that's great. The iPad will be a fine device for you and your net surfing needs. It won't for me. Down the road if the internet changes and the sites I frequent use HTML5 or something other than Flash, maybe it will be fine. For now, it's a one of a few deal breakers that will keep me from buying a first generation iPad

[nekokami]

Let's keep it civil, please. I like to start by assuming that everyone who posts an opinion is posting reality as they experience it, and that they are probably not alone. There are those who use technologies like Flash heavily, and those who don't. There are valid reasons for both positions.

And since, as far as I know, none of us work for Apple, we don't know what their actual reasoning is for not including Flash. We can speculate, but there is no point to arguing about who is right.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Why do you dislike Flash for menus?

kacir did a good job covering this.

In my case, it's simple: Flash navigation is not usually ADA-compliant. (I work for a public university, where this is critical.) Also, see Jakob Nielsen (my favorite usability guru) on Flash usability:

Flash: 99% Bad

Nielsen argues that there are usability problems with the way Flash is often used, not necessarily with Flash itself. Interesting stuff.

Here's one of my favorite comments by Jakob Nielsen on oddball navigation:

The website of J.K. Rowling (author of the Harry Potter books) might be an exception to the avoiding-mystery rule. The site feels more like an adventure game, but that's appropriate because its primary purpose is to feed fans rumors about Rowling's next book. The site contains many an oblique element. There's no way, for example, that you'd ever guess that a bunch of paper clips are a link to the FAQ. The site violates most guidelines for hypertext links: it has no perceived affordance of clickability and only the most tenuous of metaphors maps the reference domain to the target domain.

User research with children shows that they often have problems using websites if links and buttons don't look clickable. At the same time, using a virtual environment as a main navigation interface does work well with kids, even though it's rarely appreciated by adults (outside of games). Also, children have more patience for hunting down links and rolling over interesting parts of a page to see what they do. On balance, the mystery approach to design succeeds for Rowling -- just don't try it for sites that are not about teenage wizards.

Mastery, Mystery, and Misery: The Ideologies of Web Design

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Interesting reason noted in the original post. Mouse hovering is important to many sites. But I see an easy workaround. A multi-touch device could be set to always hover the mouse if two fingers are pressed on the screen (say any finger from your off-hand).

Heck, I already do something similar frequently with a regular keyboard and mouse -- Control & Left mouse drag to copy something in many Microsoft applications. Or Shift & Left mouse drag to "pan" in Adobe Photoshop.

Actually, I was thinking that inside Flash, a single finger could be "hover," whereas one would tap with a second finger. This might be a good user-configurable option for web browsers on multi-touch screens in general, actually.

(Hm... we use hover-dropdown menus on our site where I work. I think I'm going to need an iPad to be able to test this. )