Fight Flash Here!

[TadW]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

P.S.: Tadw, you beat me to the punch.

But yours was more in-depth.

[scottjl]

Oh i know, why i said to take it with a grain of salt. But if they are at least encoding for h.264 , they don't have to use flash as a container.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Fat Abe

More fodder to add to the fire:

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/05/...s-flash-dying/

Flash and h.264 are not incompatible, nor exclusive to one another. The Fortune blog is not too deep, but the followup posts are very enlightening. Here is the commentary of one reader (CM Owen, Monroeville, Alabama):

Seems a lot of folks don't know the difference between the technologies.

FLV (Flash video) is a container. It can (and usually does these days) H.264. Embedded Flash is then used to play the FLV (because we need some way to embed it in a web site).

Contrary to what most people think, HTML5 is not a standard. It is still in development and at this point there is no agreed upon CODEC for video embedding. In fact, Ian Hickson has stated it probably won't have a final draft until 2022 and wide-spread "early" adoption will happen around 2014. HTML5 is not a video format in itself. It is what a handful of companies (Apple, Mozilla, and Opera) have been putting together to replace the currently aged XHTML schema from W3C. It was kind of "forced" onto the W3C as they have slack in further development of web standards.

I haven't followed the standards committee work on HTML5, and cannot vouch for the 2022 final draft or approval(?) date cited above. Neither HTML5 or mobile Flash are a slam dunk yet. I'll sit on the sidelines until both formats are out in the field and ready to be tested by end users. Apple can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk?

P.S.: Tadw, you beat me to the punch.

I sure hope that if Google opens VP8, H.264 will disappear.

H.264 is a Trojan Horse. It is proprietary and if, as expected, the MPEG-LA imposes royalties in 2015, it will kill open source browsers.

If most web video is viewable only in commercial browsers, then DRM and other restrictions will be much, much easier to impose.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I sure hope that if Google opens VP8, H.264 will disappear.

H.264 is a Trojan Horse. It is proprietary and if, as expected, the MPEG-LA imposes royalties in 2015, it will kill open source browsers.

If most web video is viewable only in commercial browsers, then DRM and other restrictions will be much, much easier to impose.

If the MPEG-LA decides that they want a per-video license fee, they are shooting themselves in the foot, and good riddance. I like the format because it is properly standardized, rather than building up something from legos (MKV + OGG/MP3/AAC/AC3 + Theora/H.264/Whatever for example), but if they want to kill their format, I don't need to stick around to support it, and I have a feeling Apple would move to something else if that happened as well (so much of their work is based around H.264, the logistics of collecting royalties would be a PiTA).

That said, MPEG-4 already requires royalty payments. The fact that they haven't been aggressive against the OSS projects that encode/decode MPEG-4 is very strange (x264, XviD, Handbrake, ffmpeg, MPlayer and others).

Right now, the /real/ difference between MPEG-4 now, and MPEG-4 after the change you are talking about affects content providers (private or corporate) that put up video using MPEG-4. It doesn't affect the end user, but it will steer away websites from H.264 in droves.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Kolenka

... but if they want to kill their format, I don't need to stick around to support it, and I have a feeling Apple would move to something else if that happened as well (so much of their work is based around H.264, the logistics of collecting royalties would be a PiTA)....

MPEG-LA extended its decision not to demand royalties until 2015.

But if H.264 has anywhere near the adoption rate of Flash, it will be very hard to dislodge it, because of the enormous investment such change requires.

Apple is one of the H.264 patent-holders.

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Apple is one of the H.264 patent-holders.

There is a lot more than H.264 going on here. It's just one facet of the MPEG-4 format.

One patent in a pool of 50+ (which I can't even confirm is accurate... I'm surprised Apple would have a patent over H.264 tech in the first place, but seems to be true) isn't gonna save Apple from paying license fees. In fact, Apple pays MPEG-4 licensing fees today (including fees for H.264). But with their sheer level of investment in the format across the board, they are basically just paying the license fee cap each year. At that point, extra investment into the format only comes out of the R&D budget and the BOM costs, and the license costs per unit go down as they ship more units.

Apple's real big investment in the MPEG-4 format is in the file format, as it is an updated version of the QT4 file format, and very similar/compatible through most of the structure.

However, since H.264 is licensed in addition to the MPEG-4 standard (of which it is a part of), it is entirely possible to back off H.264 if it comes under attack and still use MPEG-4 with the better licensing terms. It leaves it without a truly modern video codec, but free of the per-video royalties.

And again, even though Apple holds a patent or two on H.264, doesn't mean they are immune to this, or the fallout of such a decision.

[scottjl]

http://www.tuaw.com/2010/05/05/found...nd-crashing-f/

crashes playing youtube video, that looks promising.

"basically a giant Android phone."

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by scottjl

http://www.tuaw.com/2010/05/05/found...nd-crashing-f/

crashes playing youtube video, that looks promising.

"basically a giant Android phone."

LOL. Da Geezuh spreading FUD....

It is not a crash - the consensus outside of the fanboy universe is that the guy pressed something while playing with the tablet and closed the window (Android usually flashes an error message if there is an issue).

But, here is a real review from someone who was an actual attendee, with videos and pics:

Android Multi-Touch Tablet Prototype Hands-on Review! [Web 2.0 Expo]

"... The best part about the Google Android Tablet?

It runs Adobe’s Flash and Air apps flawlessly. That was the first time I saw Adobe’s Air apps running on a tablet and totally impressed by how it ran.
...
For those of you who have successfully held out on buying an iPad, it might be a smart idea to wait until the Android multi-touch tablets come out to the market as they will probably be cheaper plus you will be able to use Adobe’s flash and air applications. This certainly means that you could possibly use all your regular desktop Adobe air applications (such as Twitter clients) right on the new Android Tablet device. ..."

[scottjl]

Sonist, if I throw a bucket of water on you, will you disappear? Of course the Android camp is going to say it didn't crash. Are you all set to go out and buy your Android in 2 weeks? Does that mean we'll never have to hear from you again in the Apple forums..?

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by scottjl

Sonist, if I throw a bucket of water on you, will you disappear?...

Judging by the technical knowledge you've shown, I don't think you can figure out how to turn the tap on....



But did you look at the real review I posted? Flash runs really nice on the Android tablet, doesn't it?

Cheers.

[scottjl]

LOL. Maybe you need to take a look at some of the postings I've done, maybe like this one. As usual, you fail to do your research.

Well, I'd be lying if I said I'll miss you, but I'm sure you can't wait to take your excellent research techniques and technical knowledge over to some lucky Android forums! Best!

[Kolenka]

Originally Posted by Sonist

LOL. Da Geezuh spreading FUD....

It is not a crash - the consensus outside of the fanboy universe is that the guy pressed something while playing with the tablet and closed the window (Android usually flashes an error message if there is an issue).

Well, there is some question in my mind if the plugin or browser was at fault (it really could be either from the video), but he certainly clicked a link to watch the browser die.

The close button didn't have any of his fingers near it, and when he clicked the link right over the video itself, the browser died pretty much instantly.

Those who despise flash don't believe it crashes every 15 minutes. But it does crash from time to time, and Adobe seems impotent to drive the crashing bugs out of Flash, which is my personal complaint. Crashing bugs out of all bugs are top priority in my company. Why? Because it can cause the user to lose data, which is a Very Bad Thing(tm).

And my biggest complaint about the Android platform is that while Google leaves it open, which is nice, they've also left OEMs to clean up any rough edges, which isn't. The platform needs leadership to really thrive, or Apple and Microsoft will wind up eating their lunch in the long-run.

[rock]

Originally Posted by scottjl

LOL. Maybe you need to take a look at some of the postings I've done, maybe like this one. As usual, you fail to do your research.

Well, I'd be lying if I said I'll miss you, but I'm sure you can't wait to take your excellent research techniques and technical knowledge over to some lucky Android forums! Best!

Erm I believe you have me on Ignore but, really that is your claim to fame? Setting up a portable router? You have countless times ignore the research people have done, and you pick out one thing to pick on.

Why can't someone have an opinion without you ripping on them? And how are you still a member here?

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by scottjl

Sonist, if I throw a bucket of water on you, will you disappear?

This kind of ad hominem abusive has to STOP NOW. What is there so difficult about reading and understanding our guidelines?

No more bickering. Anyone who cannot or does not want to understand this will be warned in person for a final time. Continue, and you will be banned.

Thank you for you understanding.

Alexander
MobileRead Team

[Sonist]

Engadget updated the Adobe Android tablet story, with a statement from NVIDIA:

"Update: looks like that "flawless" Flash performance is all thanks to Tegra 2, as we've been informed by NVIDIA just now. Here's the statement:

"It is indeed Tegra 2. We worked closely with Adobe to show how next-gen Tegra can bring the complete web to tablets at Web 2.0.

You can expect to start seeing Tegra 2 devices appearing this summer, with plenty on the way in the third and fourth quarters of the year.""