Microsoft and the Xbox - Page 6

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 08:42 PM

From what I gathered, he wasn't saying many hadn't NOT modded their consoles. But rather had modded them for reasons he considered legitimate (or the AU government considers legitmate) like being able to play games for other regions.

DawnFalcon · 11-12-2009, 11:30 PM

No, *as well as* people with modded consoles, people in regions where modchipping is explictly legal, people who have just swapped new hard disks in and people who have changed hard disks legtimately, they seem to be hitting a higher percentage of unmodified users.

dmaul1114 · 11-12-2009, 11:47 PM

Interesting. The only issue I'd heard with hard drives is with the dashboard update previews. If you put those on your HD (if you get in the preview) and take it to a friends, they'll be banned from live until the update is officially out if they're not in the preview. But, as with the other stuff, that's in the statement you agree to when you download the preview of the updates to your console, so no big deal IMO.

Regions where modchipping is legal--doesn't mean it's not a violation of the x-box live terms of service. But they should have just made the console region free in that region--or just not bothered selling it in that region period to avoid the negative PR from having a rule against something that is legal in the region.

But yeah, if you're right (can't tell since you haven't given a cite despite asking others for one

) they do need to refine the banning from live process a bit.

DawnFalcon · 11-13-2009, 08:39 AM

So corperations should be allowed to stomp all over laws because of EULAs? No, not really, and most EULA's are not worth the electrons used to display them on a screen in the EU. The latest Blizzard EULA (Battle.net EU) has about four paragraphs which don't contain objectional content under UK law, incidentally (And if you have more than a few automatically unfair terms, the entire thing is in serious danger in the courts).

Oh, and not selling? Still gotta deal with people importing and quite legally modchipping..

And if you have a few tens of thousands sitting arround to subscribe to a service... (hey, the founder of said analysis service is a friend. heh)

Hellmark · 11-13-2009, 10:22 AM

The latest report I've read is that roughly 1,000,000 people were banned from Xbox Live, or roughly 1 in 20. That is up from initial reports of 600,000.

HarryT · 11-13-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

So corperations should be allowed to stomp all over laws because of EULAs? No, not really, and most EULA's are not worth the electrons used to display them on a screen in the EU. The latest Blizzard EULA (Battle.net EU) has about four paragraphs which don't contain objectional content under UK law, incidentally (And if you have more than a few automatically unfair terms, the entire thing is in serious danger in the courts).

Microsoft are not doing anything to your XBox, or preventing you from using it. They are merely blocking access to the "XBox Live" service. Unlike the XBox itself, which is your property, the "Live" service is theirs, and they have every right to block access to it to anyone who breaches the terms of service. They are certainly breaking no laws by doing so.

Shaggy · 11-13-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

They are certainly breaking no laws by doing so.

No, but in countries where modding has specifically been legalized they are attempting to overrule those laws with their EULA. Whether or not an EULA is allowed to take away legal rights is questionable. In such countries, MS is basically saying that in order to use the LIVE service you have to give up your legal right to modify the hardware. That's not likely to stand up in court.

HarryT · 11-13-2009, 12:45 PM

All sorts of examples of services only being offered to a specific group of people spring to mind. Eg, holiday companies which restrict holidays to people within a certain age range are perfectly legal, in spite of age discrimination laws.

It seems to me, that as long as Microsoft make it clear "up front" that if you modify your XBox, you will be excluded from the "Live" service, then anyone who chooses to do so is voluntarily removing themselves from the service, even though modding the hardware is an entirely legal activity.

dmaul1114 · 11-13-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

No, but in countries where modding has specifically been legalized they are attempting to overrule those laws with their EULA. Whether or not an EULA is allowed to take away legal rights is questionable. In such countries, MS is basically saying that in order to use the LIVE service you have to give up your legal right to modify the hardware. That's not likely to stand up in court.

True on that.

MS really should have just stripped region coding in Australia--which I assume would get rid of any legal need to mod the console.

Or just said screw it and not sold their product there. They make most of their money in the US and Europe anyway.

I have no problem with their EULA, but I do agree that it probably won't hold up in court int his instance for the reason you list. Though I think it should as I have no problem with companies requiring certain conditions for allowing people to use a network service they provide as long as they are up front about those conditions. It's their network, they can do what in terms of who they let on it IMO.

Shaggy · 11-13-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

All sorts of examples of services only being offered to a specific group of people spring to mind. Eg, holiday companies which restrict holidays to people within a certain age range are perfectly legal, in spite of age discrimination laws.

True, but they're not letting people outside the age range sign up for the holiday, pay their money, and then deny it based on the clauses in a contract. They prevent them from signing up in the first place. That's not quite the same thing.

An equivalent would be if a holiday company let someone who was 49 sign up for a cruise that required people to be under 50, pay their money, and then kick them off the ship without a refund because they had a birthday during the cruise. I think the individual would have a much stronger case for age discrimination in that scenario.

Quote:

It seems to me, that as long as Microsoft make it clear "up front" that if you modify your XBox, you will be excluded from the "Live" service, then anyone who chooses to do so is voluntarily removing themselves from the service, even though modding the hardware is an entirely legal activity.

I don't know anything about Australian law, but in the US there are rules about what "make it clear up front" means and also what types of legal rights can be given up in a contract.

Hellmark · 11-13-2009, 01:12 PM

In the US, it is supposedly legal to mod systems, you hear stories periodically of them going after and arresting sellers of modchips. Reason for this, is some are interpreting the often vague wording of the DMCA, to where it is illegal to have equipment possible of by passing antipiracy protection. I remember one account of a guy getting arrested for having ONE modchip, and it wasn't even installed yet.

Sonist · 11-13-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

...
It seems to me, that as long as Microsoft make it clear "up front" that if you modify your XBox, you will be excluded from the "Live" service, then anyone who chooses to do so is voluntarily removing themselves from the service, even though modding the hardware is an entirely legal activity.

So, if MS made it clear, that if you modify your XBOX, they'll come and take it away, that's O.K. too?

Or if Amazon sent a "kill" command to all Kindles with modified fonts, or containing items with stripped DRM, or which have been taken to countries where the Kindle is not sold? I dunno, maybe there is such a clause in their EULA....

How easily we give up the rights of others.

deltop · 11-13-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

How easily we give up the rights of others.

What about the right of Microsoft to run their own service and run it as they see fit?

What about my right to play games on Live free from hackers and people who use exploits to cheat? Far too many people cheat on Live through the use of modded consoles.

Besides no one uses modchips on the 360. It's all done via modified drive firmware which in itself violates copyright law. This doesn't enable you to play games from other regions or run unsigned code. It ONLY allows you to play copied games, NOTHING else. So I have a hard time seeing how anyone can argue against MS banning modded consoles from Live.

Btw I have a modded 360

Shaggy · 11-13-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltop

It's all done via modified drive firmware which in itself violates copyright law.

I don't see how, unless you're distributing it. Modifying your own 360 shouldn't be a copyright violation.

Quote:

It ONLY allows you to play copied games, NOTHING else.

Not from what others on this thread are saying. Maybe the modified firmware you're using only allows that, but there seem to be people modifying theirs for other reasons.

PKFFW · 11-13-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Microsoft are not doing anything to your XBox, or preventing you from using it. They are merely blocking access to the "XBox Live" service. Unlike the XBox itself, which is your property, the "Live" service is theirs, and they have every right to block access to it to anyone who breaches the terms of service. They are certainly breaking no laws by doing so.

Exactly right.

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11-12-2009, 08:42 PM	#76
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	From what I gathered, he wasn't saying many hadn't NOT modded their consoles. But rather had modded them for reasons he considered legitimate (or the AU government considers legitmate) like being able to play games for other regions.

11-12-2009, 11:30 PM	#77
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	No, as well as people with modded consoles, people in regions where modchipping is explictly legal, people who have just swapped new hard disks in and people who have changed hard disks legtimately, they seem to be hitting a higher percentage of unmodified users.

11-12-2009, 11:47 PM	#78
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	Interesting. The only issue I'd heard with hard drives is with the dashboard update previews. If you put those on your HD (if you get in the preview) and take it to a friends, they'll be banned from live until the update is officially out if they're not in the preview. But, as with the other stuff, that's in the statement you agree to when you download the preview of the updates to your console, so no big deal IMO. Regions where modchipping is legal--doesn't mean it's not a violation of the x-box live terms of service. But they should have just made the console region free in that region--or just not bothered selling it in that region period to avoid the negative PR from having a rule against something that is legal in the region. But yeah, if you're right (can't tell since you haven't given a cite despite asking others for one ) they do need to refine the banning from live process a bit.

11-13-2009, 08:39 AM	#79
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	So corperations should be allowed to stomp all over laws because of EULAs? No, not really, and most EULA's are not worth the electrons used to display them on a screen in the EU. The latest Blizzard EULA (Battle.net EU) has about four paragraphs which don't contain objectional content under UK law, incidentally (And if you have more than a few automatically unfair terms, the entire thing is in serious danger in the courts). Oh, and not selling? Still gotta deal with people importing and quite legally modchipping.. And if you have a few tens of thousands sitting arround to subscribe to a service... (hey, the founder of said analysis service is a friend. heh)

11-13-2009, 10:22 AM	#80
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,592 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	The latest report I've read is that roughly 1,000,000 people were banned from Xbox Live, or roughly 1 in 20. That is up from initial reports of 600,000.

11-13-2009, 12:45 PM	#83
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	All sorts of examples of services only being offered to a specific group of people spring to mind. Eg, holiday companies which restrict holidays to people within a certain age range are perfectly legal, in spite of age discrimination laws. It seems to me, that as long as Microsoft make it clear "up front" that if you modify your XBox, you will be excluded from the "Live" service, then anyone who chooses to do so is voluntarily removing themselves from the service, even though modding the hardware is an entirely legal activity.

11-13-2009, 01:12 PM	#86
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,592 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	In the US, it is supposedly legal to mod systems, you hear stories periodically of them going after and arresting sellers of modchips. Reason for this, is some are interpreting the often vague wording of the DMCA, to where it is illegal to have equipment possible of by passing antipiracy protection. I remember one account of a guy getting arrested for having ONE modchip, and it wasn't even installed yet.

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