Universities say no more Kindles till blind students can use it.....

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Those cases are not analogous. For one thing, nobody is denying Kindles to the visually impaired people, its just a service that is not as useful to them (not all visually impaired people would find a Kindle useless). Also, presumably, the visually impaired have other services which they can access that allow them to receive a good education, whether this be audiobooks, screen readers, or other technological devices or classroom accomodations. When I was in primary school I was permitted to use the class computer for my writing assignments (on state mandated tests I was allowed to dictate my responses) because of a neurological condition which makes my handwriting illegible. This was an accomodation that was made for me to ensure that I received the education to which I was entitled by state law (and which my parents and the school system were mandated to provide). I think it would have been wrong for some parents to object to this simply because there wasn't a computer for everyone. Similarly, it would be wrong to protest against the visually impaired being provided with screen readers to aid in their education. This argument, however, cuts both ways. It is wrong to attempt to block the introduction of technological aids which could substantially improve the education of non-visually impaired students. Absolute equality is not equity. They are two different concepts. To sacrifice equity for a mere numerical equality is unjust.

Luqman

In my case, I have what is called low vision. I am legally blind in the left eye, but have enough vision in the right eye to read most of the time with aids. For instance I use software that magnifies the screen. It also has TTS for those times when my diabetes is bad enough that I can't read at all. So I think a Kindle or other ereader that has TTS would be perfect.

However, I don't really see a need for this policy. After all, there are other avenues for those who are blind or low vision. In order for the students to be earning their college credits, they had to have some way for them to access the information. If they can already access it, then there is no need for them to demand that the Kindle make those changes.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Harry, you are right as regards Amazon but I think -- based solely on the little that has been presented here (and I freely admit I may well be wrong) -- that the lawsuit's purpose is being misconstrued.

As I understand it, the suit is about requiring students to use the Kindle as part of the university's requirements for a class. When the program was originally started, the idea was to replace printed textbooks with Kindled ebooks and require students to use the Kindle to access the coursework.

If this is correct, then the lawsuit makes sense to me: It is asking that the requirement of using a Kindle be eliminated. To require a particular course as part of graduation requirements, and to require the use of certain texts in that class, necessarily implies that (a) the course will be available to all students (after all, how could someone graduate if they haven't taken a required-to- graduate course?) and (b) that the required course materials will be accessible and available to all enrolled students.

I suspect that the Kindle program fails on the latter and that is what the lawsuit is about: stopping universities from requiring students to use material that they cannot access.

Again, let me emphasize that not having read the lawsuit papers I am only guessing and may be wrong by 180 degrees.

Even if the university had a requirement to use the Kindle, it would not apply to the students who could not use it due to disability. The university would still have to make a 504 plan and then make any accomodations needed for the student.

Two of my children had 504 plans and the school was required to make accomodations for them. One of them had to have a laptop provided by the school system to take notes. The other had to be allowed to leave the classroom any time he felt stressed as he had severe Tourettes and stress would bring on episodes.

Also, when I went back to college after retiring, I had to have accomodations made by the university due to vision, hearing, and physical access. At that time, I found out that all public colleges in the US are required to have someone to run their accomodation program. So, I can promise you that the university was never requiring their blind students to use the Kindle.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by khalleron

But Amazon's *intent*, as was stated in all the PR for the DX, is to replace all textbooks with a DX.

If the universities cannot find a way to accommodate the visually-impaired, they are violating the law in the US. The Americans with Disabilities Act *requires* public institutions to accommodate those with disabilities. To require students to use a device that is not accessible to everyone is actually illegal.

For your example, if universities required students to pass a music course, and required them to use a certain MP3 player, yes, they would be practicing discrimination and not only could be sued, but fined.

So, no, it may not be Amazon's 'fault', but the universities are absolutely doing the right (and legal) thing by dumping the DX in favor of the old print and braille technology.

Just because a company states that they want their product to replace all other products in a category in their PR literature, doesn't mean that is their actual plan or that it will happen.

in this case, Amazon may say they want to replace all textbooks, it is very unlikely that they want to replace the braile books. That is a niche that Amazon likely doesn't want to mess with due to the high cost to income ratio. It is even less likely that Amazon could replace all textbooks with their Kindle DX.

Further, the university has already in place a method to accomodate those students with vision problems. If they didn't, they would not be able to handle those students that were already going to that institute. That means that there is no problem with the ADA regulations.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Well, a blind driver's biggest problem is that they can't order lunch.

Actually, I don't think blind drivers are really all that uncommon. At least, it certainly seems that way every day when I drive in to work.

Especially if you live in Florida.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

There are broad exemptions to allow legally blind people to acquire large print and audiobooks in many countries, you have to allow disabled access to shops and so on. Why is disabled access in electronic devices not a reasonable step?

It's a couple of Universities telling a large corperation what they need to do to be considered for a large-scale rollout of one of their products. Happens all the time. If as has been suggested the use of the device is mandatory for a course, then the Universitys are very much in the wrong in the way they were using them in the first place and it's a necessary change.

I am going to say again, just because a university requires something for the class, does not mean that this is etched in stone. Anyone who needs an accomodation WILL, repeat WILL, be given one. That means that the blind students don't have to use the Kindle even if it is required for the class.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by Daithi

MS Windows has features that make it easier for the blind to use their software, but it doesn't read out loud every menu item that a cursor hovers over. No one rejects MS Windows because it doesn't serve the blind well enough. They reject MS Windows becauses it crashes too often, is slow, and prone to getting viruses.

The Kindle DX has TTS which makes it easier for the blind to use, but it is not designed for the blind and won't read out loud every menu item that a cursor hovers over. It seems short-sighted (no pun intended - yeah right) to reject the Kindle for this reason. The crippled (did it again) implementation of PDF, where students can't highlight passages or take notes, is a far more valid reason to reject the Kindle DX.

I use ZoomText from Aisquared to help me. It does acually read out loud every menu or anything else that is displayed on the screen. It also has human sounding voices to do it. It can also magnify the screen all the way up to 36X and change all the fonts, colors, contrast, etc. to make the screen more visible. It is a real life saver for me.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Daithi - So it's acceptable for there to be a course which requires the Kindle, and which thus requires frequent aid from a sighted person to the blind person to handle the reading which, in the normal course of events, they could handle themselves on a PC?

First, the university HAS to make accomodations for the student. That is always going to be the case. As a disabled person who has two children with minor disabilities, I can promise you that every school in the country will bend over backwards to make accomodations for each student that needs it.

Keep in mind that the school gets extra money for every disabled student that they have. The US Department of Education provides an extra 15% of the national average cost per pupil to educate all students. So if the national average to educate a student is $7,000, then the school will get an extra $1,050 for every student that has a 504 plan due to disability. On top of that, they can get extra money from the state, and various grants.

Most of the time, it costs far less than the money that they get from these sources to make the accomodations. So the school actually makes money to do this.

Second, there are more ways than just having a sighted person read to them. You might not have heard of the Victor Reader Stream. It can take any textbook that has been put into the proper format and then read it to the user. It has audio driven controls so the person doesn't have to be able to see to use their textbook or any other book. There are many other devices that are similar to this.

As I understand it, all textbooks in the US are sent by the publisher to NIMAC where they can be promptly be converted to whatever format is needed. So there are ways to accomodate every student. There is no reason to sue Amazon or even hold up the usage of the Kindles in the classroom.

[DawnFalcon]

This "Victor Reader Stream" works on the Kindle? I'm quite aware of screenreading software for the PC, I'm pointing out that the Kindle dosn't have the same capacity.

I also think you need to look further into the origional complaint...

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Fair enough as that is the current specific example I guess.

But it's also a pipe dream to ever expect many textbook publishers--among the greediest corporations out there--to make DRM'ed ebooks available. They'd rather someone pay the absurd price for a book full of crappy content to be read and record for the blind person vs having a non-DRM'ed e-book that would eventually get passed around to other students.

I think we'll see textbook companies be resistant to e-books period for quite some time because of that reason.

The textbook companies are already required by Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act (IDEA) to provide the book and related materials in an XML format to NIMAC. The file can then be converted to whatever is needed for the student.

[khalleron]

You also don't have to write individual answers to every post in the thread. You made your point on the first one.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Not entirely accurate. Syracuse University, one of the schools mentioned in this story, said that they won't be buying the Kindle for their library because of complaints.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=120340625

Basically, the schools are reacting to people who are making baseless complaints. At least IMO.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

? No, the problem was that the only version of the course material avaliable was on the Kindles.

Most academic institutions are set up to provide all course material in large print/braile/audio formats if necessary, it's just not really possible for there to be unaided reading on the K2 right now, so it breaks that chain. Their actions in not using them for courses are quite reasonable.

Before they made the course material into the Kindle format, they had it in other formats already. The students with vision impairment do not and never did need the kindle.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

This "Victor Reader Stream" works on the Kindle? I'm quite aware of screenreading software for the PC, I'm pointing out that the Kindle dosn't have the same capacity.

I also think you need to look further into the origional complaint...

I read the links given and understand the original complaint. They complained that they felt the Kindles was useless if you are blind. I understand that completely.

No, the Victor Reader Stream does not work with the Kindle. It is a seperate device for the blind that allows them to hear all the text and to make and hear the notes for that text.

What I think you and some others are missing, is that the Kindle was never the only way for the students to access the material. The blind students have always had other ways to access the material. This can be through brail, large print, DAISY, audio book, CDs of people reading the text, TTS, having it on a PC with ZoomText, etc. The vision impaired students are complaining that other students have a new option for their texts, when they have had many options all along and don't need the Kindle at all. So I think that this is a baseless complaint here.

What I think happened, is that someone at the NFB sees a great potential in ereaders, but also see the problems with it for the blind. In order to put pressure on Amazon to make the changes they want, the NFB orchestrated these complaints to the universities. Considering how many devices they could lose out on selling, Amazon is eager to make the two schools happy. That in turn makes the NFB happy.

[scveteran]

Originally Posted by khalleron

You also don't have to write individual answers to every post in the thread. You made your point on the first one.

I apologize for posting my thoughts to so many various posts. I will not do so again.

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by scveteran

I apologize for posting my thoughts to so many various posts. I will not do so again.

Dont' worry about it too much scveteran. I suppose it is customary to respond to just 2 or 3 posts at a time, so you might have gone a little overboard. But your comments added to the discussion, so I didn't have a problem with them. I'm glad to see you participating on the boards.