Seriously thoughtful Contemplating the Onuissance

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, I suppose we can close this thread right here, then. It seems clear that there will be no Age of Responsibility: Instead, we can expect an Age of Disaster, followed by everyone waving their flag and blaming everyone else for letting everything go to Hell, just before they burn/drown/starve/get shot/get eaten.

As I always suspected.

Thanks for renewing my faith in Humanity. Out.

Bit of a dichotomy there, wouldn't you say?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

At some point in the future, CFLs and LED bulbs will get cheap enough that it will make sense to replace that bulb whether it has burned out or not. If you look at the unfortunately long discussion I posted on the question, you'll see that it's pretty easy to decide when to do it.

I look forward to your predicted improvements in lighting tech. But in the mean time, I'll upgrade stuff that'll make a bigger difference.

Xenophon

Excellent - a perfect example of why we're all screwed here. Basically its a question of 'I'll only start caring about the world when it doesn't actually cost me anything to do so'!

Not really surprising though from a US citizen - which country is it that, despite being the largets consumer in the world, consistently refuses to join world-wide emissions targets (best not, might upset Bubba in Texas there!).

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Excellent - a perfect example of why we're all screwed here. Basically its a question of 'I'll only start caring about the world when it doesn't actually cost me anything to do so'!

Not really surprising though from a US citizen - which country is it that, despite being the largets consumer in the world, consistently refuses to join world-wide emissions targets (best not, might upset Bubba in Texas there!).

Yeah, buddy. Unlike most of Europe who missed every one they promised...

And what about China, which didn't join either, and will surpass the US in CO2 in 5 years or so? (But they're a developing country, they get a free pass.)

I know, I know, blame the US for everything....

Review the state of the world in 30 years to see whose been really stupid...

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So: How do we convince Americans that we all need to take action, even when we do not want to, for the good of a planet? How do we invoke the "S" word--sacrifice--without being labeled "communist" and run out of town on a rail? How do we get a nation of people together, who do not seem to want to have anything to do with each other?

If you really understood human behavior then you wouldn't have to ask the question.

I do have some understanding, and I'm somewhat relieved that you don't. I object in principle to screwing around in people's heads.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Excellent - a perfect example of why we're all screwed here. Basically its a question of 'I'll only start caring about the world when it doesn't actually cost me anything to do so'!

Not really surprising though from a US citizen - which country is it that, despite being the largets consumer in the world, consistently refuses to join world-wide emissions targets (best not, might upset Bubba in Texas there!).

Bilbo1967 -- I respectfully request that you go back and read my overly long post (#54 in this thread) with some care. The question I'm addressing wasn't "should I switch to more efficient bulbs to save energy and money?" but rather "Why might it be a bad idea to legislate incandescent bulbs out of existence?" along with "Given that I wish to invest in improved efficiency, and also that I cannot afford to make all possible efficiency upgrades simultaneously, how do I decide which upgrade to pursue first?"

The point of the post you took out of its context in the larger discussion was that switching the least-used lightbulb in my house to CFL would be a waste of money that I could have spent on upgrading a bulb that sees substantially greater use! Or, better still, let the up-front cost difference help to pay for something that makes an even bigger difference. A more-efficient refrigerator (as just one example).

Really, you've got things backwards here.

Xenophon

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Nor is anyone asking you to change the current light bulb or not use the incandescent lights you already have. This is certainly going to be a gradual change. As you replace things the hope is the new ones will be more efficient and will contribute to the reduced use of power overall.

BOb

Proposals to legislate incandescent lights out of existence, or to tax them to the point where their up-front cost is no more attractive than CFLs most certainly constitute "asking me to change the current light bulb" to a CFL the moment the current bulb burns out. And that would be a sub-optimal outcome -- until such time as either (a) CFLs (or other high-efficiency bulbs) become substantially cheaper in terms of up-front cost, (b) the cost of electricity goes up so much that it's worth replacing, or (c) I upgrade enough other things around the house that my least-used bulb is the highest pay-off thing remaining to upgrade.

Note that in all of this discussion I'm using "cost" as a proxy for $$+pollution+greenhouse-gasses+likelihood-of-global-warming+... It's not just about the $$, although they sure make a useful guide to which things to do first.

I do believe that this is part of what responsibility -- onus even -- is about.

Xenophon

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Proposals to legislate incandescent lights out of existence, or to tax them to the point where their up-front cost is no more attractive than CFLs most certainly constitute "asking me to change the current light bulb" to a CFL the moment the current bulb burns out.

Yes, that is what I am asking you to do. You're the one that said it has lasted so long that it is still working. So, how long are we talking here. I can't believe you are so stuck on one insignificant example as a reason why people shouldn't be given an incentive to do the right thing.

You really can't spend $1.64 for a light bulb? Are we really arguing over that? Tell you what, send me your paypal account id and I will pay pal you the $2. Then we can move onto something important.

BOb

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Not really surprising though from a US citizen - which country is it that, despite being the largets consumer in the world, consistently refuses to join world-wide emissions targets (best not, might upset Bubba in Texas there!).

I'm sorry, you really need to tone this down here. Personal attacks are not tolerated here on MR. Also, keep in mind the average US citizen has no control over the actions of the US government.

BOb - Moderator

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Yes, that is what I am asking you to do. You're the one that said it has lasted so long that it is still working. So, how long are we talking here. I can't believe you are so stuck on one insignificant example as a reason why people shouldn't be given an incentive to do the right thing.

You really can't spend $1.64 for a light bulb? Are we really arguing over that? Tell you what, send me your paypal account id and I will pay pal you the $2. Then we can move onto something important.

BOb

The price of that bulb is not what I'm arguing about (can't speak for you, obviously). I'm arguing that it makes more sense for me to upgrade bulbs I actually use with some frequency first. Not to mention the larger (in both cost and benefit) upgrades that would make even more difference than switching the less-used bulbs in my house to CFL (since we've long ago switched all the high-use bulbs). Our old fridge is the #1 electricity hog in the house. If I believe the info plate on the back it represents between 1/3 and 1/2 of my electric bill. It's clearly time to take some action!

One of the points I've been trying to make is that prices make a fine guide to priorities for upgrades -- and "taxing the heck" out of one variety of bulb only confuses the issue by adding noise to the signal. (OK, bad analogy -- it's not really noise, it's really a bias added to the signal.) As with most broad changes, that bias would push us towards both smart choices and stupid ones. We could argue over which kind of choice would predominate... but I'd prefer to suggest that educating people about making smarter choices would have FAR greater benefit than would biasing their choice of lightbulbs. And that's is really the big point I've been trying to make!

I've had the experience of helping a low-income inner city family figure out whether they should buy CFLs or incandescents. When you point out that using the cheapest up-front cost bulbs (incandescents) in the lights they use all the time means that they send an extra $20 or $30 to the electric company every month, you really get their attention! That money represents a large enough fraction of their spare income to really matter! The time I did the calculation with one of my wife's students, they immediately started looking to see where else they were unwittingly wasting money. Those of you who care primarily about the non-financial kind of green will be glad to hear that they went on to estimate the savings they'd get by turning down the heat in the winter, and by air-conditioning a bit less in the summer. By the time that particular student finished up her GED, the family had sliced well over $100/month out of their energy bills with no significant downside -- but that $100/month made a HUGE difference for a family who were financially on the edge.

And my wife was nearly walking on air the day her student came in and told her she'd figured out that they shouldn't put a CFL in the storage closet (because having the extra $4 for food now mattered more than the savings they'd get over the next 10 years) but that switching to CFLs for the hallway lights would pay off soon enough to put one more (small) gift under the Christmas tree. The big miracle here is that this woman realized that she could use math to make better life decisions. And that it wasn't too late for her kids to get their act in gear while still in school.

Getting the change to happen through education might be (heck, probably will be!) a bit harder than doing it through taxes or legislation -- but the benefits that it brings spill over throughout the lives of the people who learn.


Xenophon

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

I'm sorry, you really need to tone this down here. Personal attacks are not tolerated here on MR. Also, keep in mind the average US citizen has no control over the actions of the US government.

BOb - Moderator

pilot - point taken and apologies for the over-aggressive tone.

I would point out though that all US citizens (and citizens of any other democratic country to keep this from being percieved as a US bashing post) absolutely do have a level of control over what their government do. Isn't that kind of the point of a democracy?

In this case, green measures aren't taken by the government because consumers (i.e. the voters) don't like paying extra for them (e.g. an extra 5c on a gallon of gas, an extra $1 on a lightbulb to name but two trivial examples) and will remember that come polling day. It would seem that most governments have only one true aim, and that's to stay in power - if the majority of people give a clear message that they will not switch votes because they end up paying a couple of hundred dollars (or pounds - it's exactly the same in the UK) extra a year for responsible policies then these policies are much more likely to be pursued

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Yeah, buddy. Unlike most of Europe who missed every one they promised...

And what about China, which didn't join either, and will surpass the US in CO2 in 5 years or so? (But they're a developing country, they get a free pass.)

I know, I know, blame the US for everything....

Review the state of the world in 30 years to see whose been really stupid...

You mean the world will still be there in 30 years?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Bilbo1967 -- I respectfully request that you go back and read my overly long post (#54 in this thread) with some care. The question I'm addressing wasn't "should I switch to more efficient bulbs to save energy and money?" but rather "Why might it be a bad idea to legislate incandescent bulbs out of existence?" along with "Given that I wish to invest in improved efficiency, and also that I cannot afford to make all possible efficiency upgrades simultaneously, how do I decide which upgrade to pursue first?"

The point of the post you took out of its context in the larger discussion was that switching the least-used lightbulb in my house to CFL would be a waste of money that I could have spent on upgrading a bulb that sees substantially greater use! Or, better still, let the up-front cost difference help to pay for something that makes an even bigger difference. A more-efficient refrigerator (as just one example).

Really, you've got things backwards here.

Xenophon

Xenophon - having now gone back and read your longer earlier posting, I respectfully withdraw my remarks and apologise for the somewhat 'kneejerk' nature of my initial response.

You have clearly given this rather more thought than I did and I promise to be a bit less confrontational in the future

[yvanleterrible]

The voluntary gesture of waving one's rights to favor a collective deed is nothing new for the American people, look at the WW2 efforts, at how people had to sacrifice personal comforts.

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The United States is (again) at a crossroads: We must alter our debt management systems, our personal living systems, our civic systems, our transportation systems, our power systems, and our work systems, and we need to do them all now, before we as a nation plunge over the abyss. Americans are directly responsible for many of the problems we face... like someone who recklessly runs up the limit on their credit card, we have used up our credit, and now the bill is due.

But Americans are also notorious for their fervent aversion to admitting they have done anything wrong, and therefore anything that must be changed. And Americans as individuals are notorious for talking the talk, but not walking the walk, and "letting everyone else take action." It seems every American has an excuse for why they can not recycle, or take a bus, or drive a smaller car, or use CFL lightbulbs, or turn down their thermostat, even while their neighbors ably manage to do those things. Americans have become the ultimate isolationists: Once their front door is closed, they are on sovereign territory, and no one can tell them what to do.

But if we as a nation do not do these things, we face complete collapse... and may take the rest of the world with us.

So: How do we convince Americans that we all need to take action, even when we do not want to, for the good of a planet? How do we invoke the "S" word--sacrifice--without being labeled "communist" and run out of town on a rail? How do we get a nation of people together, who do not seem to want to have anything to do with each other?

I'm sorry, but I take exception with being lumped into a group described as notorious for their fervent aversion to admitting any wrongdoing, letting everyone else take action while making excuses why I can’t recycle, etc. , etc.

I am an American, and proudly so, but being American doesn’t translate into being irresponsible, selfish or ambivalent and uncaring about my impact on the world. I’m not perfect. I’m only human and can only do the best I can as a human. And I don’t feel that any other human, unless they happen to be the only perfect human on Earth, should unfairly make a blanket statement that lumps us all into the group they feel is responsible for all the evils of the world.

The following is a sampling of what I have/haven’t done to contribute to the world collapse:

Financially, I have always been responsible. Through decades of financial struggling I have NEVER been late paying a bill, have NEVER neglected to pay a debt, have NEVER bounced a check, have NEVER carried a balance on a credit card, have paid off my home 17 years early on a 30-year mortgage, have ALWAYS carried (more than adequate) auto insurance coverage, have NEVER cheated on my taxes, have routinely donated to charity, and NEVER lived beyond my means. Yet I’ve always been on the lower end of the middle-class income scale at best.

We’ve recycled aluminum for years, even though it’s hardly ever been profitable to do so. We’ve recycled newsprint, though it’s NEVER been personally worth our while to do so. We’ve used CFL light bulbs for years in every lighting receptacle in which they’ll work. They don’t work however, in lamps controlled by dimmer switches, but having dimmers makes them more energy efficient anyway. We’ve also had dimmer switches installed wherever possible at a cost of which we’ll probably never break even with their use. We have an automatic dusk-to-dawn flood light on the outside front of the house for safety.

I use blinds in addition to thermal lined drapes throughout my home which are kept closed during hot, sunny days and I use ceiling fans instead of, or in conjunction with air conditioning, with the thermostat set around 78 in summer and about 68 in winter, during which season I often use the fireplace to heat the main part of the house. I grill outdoors a lot throughout the year so as not to heat up the house too much in the summer (which can be considered to last +/- 10 months here in Texas) and to conserve energy that would be used for cooking. We installed ceiling fans in 4 rooms that originally had none.

We hardly ever water the lawn, but it still manages to grow and stay green anyway. We had both toilets in the house replaced with low flow tanks that have been “by law” forced on us as replacements only to find that they are not efficient, and don’t work the way they’re intended to. We use more water by flushing (even only paper) 3 or 4 times as opposed to the single flush that used to work with the old tanks. We replaced the shower heads with low flow heads also.

We insulated the walls and ceiling in the entire garage which is usually only insulated on the wall directly connected to the house proper. We replaced the original garage door with a fully insulated steel door. We installed radiant barrier and added insulation in our attic space. We’ve also put a new roof on the house once.

In the last 17 years we’ve replaced the water heater twice, the refrigerator twice, the dishwasher twice, the A/C system twice, the furnace three times, the bathroom exhaust fan once, and the kitchen stove once. Each replacement was more energy efficient than the last, although I must admit that was NOT the initial cause or reason for those items to be replaced.

We replaced our decrepit 6 foot wood privacy fence with a new sturdy 7 foot cedar board-on-board privacy fence. And oh my ghod, that proved not to be energy efficient at all, but unlike the old fence, the neighbor Rottweilers and Dobie can’t knock it down like they used to.

I work 25 miles from home but I don’t car pool or use the HOV lanes. The reason is that I don’t live within 30 miles of any of my coworkers and no one in my vicinity works anywhere near where I do. My town has no mass transit and there is no service to anywhere near my workplace even if I used park-and-ride. I do the next best thing I can think of by altering my work hours so that instead of being on the road an average of one to one and a half hours EACH WAY stuck in slow rush-hour traffic, I’m now on the road approximately half an hour each way. Fewer emissions, less gas used, more time for me (how selfish.) But that means I’m on the road before 5 a.m. to be at work by 5:30.

We want to replace all of our windows with energy efficient ones, but before doing that we needed foundation leveling. (You don’t want to do windows first, and then level, believe me.) We just had the leveling done last month (11k), so now it will be a little while before we’ll have the funds to do the windows.

Aside from the work and replacements mentioned being done, there has been no remodeling to our home – no new kitchen cabinets or remodeled bathrooms or anything else that would actually visually increase the value of our home. I have no doubt that we’ve invested MUCH, MUCH MORE in the little energy efficient things you say we should all do to save our planet from ruin, than we’ll EVER get out of it.

I could go further and tell you of many other things we’ve done in this vein, but most of you have already given up on reading my ramblings, so there’s really no point.

But I ask you, what sacrifices have YOU made in your day to day routine life that I haven’t done, or tried to do? I can’t afford solar panels or windmills just yet, and I’m oh so sorry for that. I would guess that a good many of us, which includes the Americans on this forum, have done much the same, or even much more in their lives than I have stated doing here.

Painting all Americans with such a broad brush is very unfair and just plain wrong. I believe that we all do WHAT we can, WHEN we can, by WHATEVER means we can.

WHAT MORE WOULD YOU HAVE ME (US) DO? I’m certainly open to suggestion. Give me a list of things that you believe I need to do better, more sacrifices you think I should make, that you yourself already do, and I’ll do my best to keep up with you. I don’t talk the talk without walking the walk, and I don’t expect someone else to do something I’m not willing to do. And to say I do otherwise simply because I’m an American is unworthy of you.

Is it just me, or am I reading a "Holier Than Thou" attitude sprinkled throughout this thread?

I'm sure we've all heard the phrase "let he, who is without sin, cast the first stone," and "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones," and "judge not, lest yee be judged." Well, even ignoring any religious connotations these expressions may conjure up, I for one try to refrain from making such harsh, blanket judgements of others until I've walked a mile in their shoes. I would hope that before condemning me simply because I'm American, you also, would first walk a mile in mine.

[HarryT]

You sound like an example for others, Lady Blue. Good on you!