Newbie question on all this Amazon DRM stuff

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by larisa0001

Yeah, what the DRM issue means to you, and to everyone else, is this - it is illegal for you to convert a Kindle-format e-book to another format. Even if you paid $10 for the ebook and own it legally. Even if you just want to read it on another gadget that you also own. Even if the Kindle goes out of production. It is never, ever, ever OK for you to decrypt an encrypted file. Moreover, it is never, ever, ever OK for you to have on your computer any application that can decrypt an encrypted file. That is copyright infringement.

I ran into this issue with my PalmPilot when I had a nasty case of eyestrain and couldn't read my ebooks on the screen. I wanted to print them out so I could read them on the page (which is what I did with my plain-text ebooks). But because they were eReader files, I could not print them out without breaking the DRM, which is illegal.

No, it is not "copyright infringement" ... it is a violation of the DMCA, IF you happen to live in the United States.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Talldog

Thanks for the welcome, but I guess I did a really poor job of asking my question. I'm a long time corporate IT guy (MCSE, build my own computers, etc.) and I understand what DRM is, although not down to the bits and bytes level. I don't like it, but I imagine it's a fact of life until enough pressure can be brought on DRM proponents, like what happened with Apple and the iTunes store.

What I was really trying to get at (and failing miserably, apparently) was that I am new to dedicated ebook readers, and all the stuff I was reading about DRM, competing ebook formats, and what can and can't be read on different readers had me confused about whether I purchased the right reader. I'm still in the return period, and I was trying to determine whether I should switch devices, although it seems that my question was interpreted as "what's the big fuss about DRM?".

At the end of the day, I just want to own the device that gives me the best chance of getting the books I want, and it looks like the Kindle is probably it. Library books aren't really an option, since I don't live anywhere near any libary with an extensive ebook collection, and my online travels didn't turn up much, unless I want to pay $100/yr to the New York Public Library. I've checked a lot of the ebook sellers like Fictionwise, MobiPocket, Books on Board, etc. and couldn't find a single book I might be interested in that isn't also available at Amazon. I even downloaded those Python scripts in just in case the lawyers end up getting them outlawed, but where could I even legally purchase DRM mobi books that aren't also available at Amazon?

At some point, Amazon is going to lose this war anyway, just like Apple did.

Yes, absolutely true -- Amazon will lose the battle in the end. And, if you found most or all of what you like to read in the Kindle format, then the Kindle was a good choice for you.

[larisa0001]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

No, it is not "copyright infringement" ... it is a violation of the DMCA, IF you happen to live in the United States.

Which is defined as copyright infringement, and carries the same penalties. And yes, this only applies to the United States.

LM

[fugazied]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

*snip*
We can no longer help others learn how to run library books on their kindle....legally, without stripping drm.

We can't post links, we can't send them to our wiki to learn how.

This site is all about learning to get the most from your device. The library is a BIG part of that.
*snip*

It's not a huge deal for me, but I can perfectly understand why it would be for many users who don't have the funds to purchase every book under the sun.

Amazon is limiting the usefulness of their device to appease publishers first and foremost. Publishers who wish to squeeze every cent out of their users. Publishers who constantly seek to expand upon copyright laws through government lobbyists.

Those publishers don't care about users, we are just dollars to them, as we are to Amazon. They'll stop at nothing if their bottom line is 'perceived' to be at stake. I say perceived because preventing this behaviour is ot necesarily increasing their sales. If anything it turns people off the Kindle, turns people off publishers who use DRM.

[Sydney's Mom]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Here is the problem as I see it.

YOU may not care about library books, but many do.

We can no longer help others learn how to run library books on their kindle....legally, without stripping drm.

We can't post links, we can't send them to our wiki to learn how.

This site is all about learning to get the most from your device. The library is a BIG part of that.

They took away our ability to help others learn.

Someday, you may want to do something with your kindle, and there are people that could help you do that.

But Amazon says "NOT!"

I think I'm going to cry - really!!

[Thomas Ryan]

Originally Posted by fugazied

[...]
Amazon is limiting the usefulness of their device to appease publishers first and foremost. Publishers who wish to squeeze every cent out of their users. Publishers who constantly seek to expand upon copyright laws through government lobbyists.

[...]

How do you know that the publishers are at the root of this? (Buy once from mobipocket for your XYZ device, buy a second time for the same e-book from Amazon.com/kindle for Kindle)? Or, ditto re the public library scenario: No, you can't "borrow" this for some circumstance that Amazon (Publisher) doesn't "approve" (via DMCA).

It may well publisher induced, or it may be an Amazon-only applied restriction.

Does anyone on this thread have any data or facts to distinguish the source of these DRM restrictions?

I don't, and I am wondering if anyone else does. Who made these decisions? Amazon unilaterally, or Amazon restricted by publishers, or is it title by title, or something else?

I'm raising this point to ensure nobody bases a conclusion on a false assumption. (almost anything can be proved from a false assumption)

[Sydney's Mom]

Here is why I care. I pay taxes to the library. i just voted for an increased assessment, even. My library has ebooks, but only in PDF. So far, since Sunday, I have read 9 library books. Even at a reduced $3.50/book, that is way more than I can afford to spend on a week's worth of books that I will never read again. So if I couldn't use my library, not only would I read less, I wouldn't vote for the next tax increase to help my library.


That is way more power than I am willing to give to Amazon. Now, it is one thing for the music producers to go after teenagers who download thousands of illegal songs. I would really like to see Amazon or any book publisher go after me because I am reading libary books on a kindle instead of a sony reader. First, it isn't going to happen because there are no damages - I have a valid library card. Second, I bet the libraries are tickled pink with anything that increased useage.

Methinks perhaps I doth protest too much. There is a little guilt that accompanies this, because I usually obey the law. But I will get over it, just like I got over the guilt accompanying jaywalking. (Chicago is the jaywalking capital of the world.)

Now I gotta get back to reading! I'm half way through book #10, and it is great! Have a nice weekend, everyone! Debra

[Talldog]

Alright, I get it now.

I think I was reading Igor's KindlePID/KindleFix v0.2 post and I saw a link to OverDrive. They have retail partners, and I just bought 4 books that I never thought I'd be able to get my hands on. And they work!

I'm very happy.

[kyliedork]

Originally Posted by larisa0001

it is illegal for you to convert a Kindle-format e-book to another format. It is never, ever, ever OK for you to decrypt an encrypted file. Moreover, it is never, ever, ever OK for you to have on your computer any application that can decrypt an encrypted file. That is copyright infringement.
.

Thats incorrect...

I'm no lawyer, but i think DRM is a illegal attack on our rights to "fair use". I'm allowed under copywrite law to copy/use creative works in the context of fair use. Encryption is infringing my rights

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Talldog

Alright, I get it now.

I think I was reading Igor's KindlePID/KindleFix v0.2 post and I saw a link to OverDrive. They have retail partners, and I just bought 4 books that I never thought I'd be able to get my hands on. And they work!

I'm very happy.

To answer a question you re-asked back further in the thread: You should have minimal problems getting legal copies of most books you want to read on your K2. You will have some problems getting loaned books from the library at this point. Some books may never be available for many years.

[kevindorsey]

I think Drm is one of the biggest limiting factors of the Kindle. With the publicity of Amazon and the resources at their disposal, Kindle could have dominated the e-reader market, but the quality of the K2 and the DRM has really hurt its stock.

[BillG]

I'm a newbee too. Have not received my Kindle yet. Am trying to learn about the DRM (which I really didn't know about, when I ordered my Kindle).

If you just bought a Kindle (like I did) for the Amazon store and free public domain books from places like Feedbooks, then no you have nothing to worry about.

So... as I understand it... I can download an ebook from some web site (like Baen Free Library, as an example) to my computer, and read it without any trouble on my Kindle (when it arrives). BUT... I can not go to a library web site, and check out an ebook, download it to my computer and read it on my Kindle. I really don't understand the difference!

I don't have a Kindle to try. So I'm kind of bind yet. Plus, I'm just now stepping into the world of ebooks. (A BIG world that I didn't even know existed, till I developed a yearn to buy a Kindle.)

If I can not download and read from sites other than Amazon, I AM upset!

Guess I will just keep reading forums here, learn what I can, and wait till my Kindle arrives.

[TallMomof2]

BillG-

If you go today to your library web site and download an ebook it will be in either DRMed MOBI or DRMed PDF. To get the DRMed PDF onto your Kindle would require circumventing the DRM and reformatting it to MOBI.

If you download today a DRMed MOBI book from your library you will have to provide a PID. This is a unique alpha/numeric code that is assigned to your computer and reading devices. In order to optain this unique code you will to install MobiPocket Desktop Reader on your PC. This can only be done on Windows PCs. You can run the program on a Mac in a Windows emulator but that's not my area of expertise.

Once MobiPocket Desktop is installed you will be able to provide the library with your computer's PID and download the MOBI ebook. Your Kindle will have a completely different PID and can be obtained be either installing MobiDesktop 6.0 (later versions don't detect the Kindle) on a Windows XP PC (Vista doesn't seem to detect the Kindle) or finding the script and getting it to work.

*However* you are still free to download and put on your Kindle any book WITHOUT DRM. That means multiformat at Fictionwise, all of Baen's offerings, and many other sites that offer legal ebooks without DRM.

[Sydney's Mom]

Unfortunately, you cannot read library books on your kindle without your PID, which Amazon does not want you to have. All your PID does is authorize your kindle to recieve books purchased at other sites, or checked out from the library. Once you have downloaded the book from a commercial site or the library, you can either use kindlefix to get the book onto your kindle with the DRM intact, or use mobidedrm to remove the DRM.

Another reason people are against DRM is because apparently Amazon has gone out of the ebook business once before. Even those of us perfectly happy with our kindles are concerned. I don't want to have to buy the same books all over again in 5 years. If I were reading books as I bought them, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but I look at purchasing books as a separate hobby from reading books.

So, I love my kindle, and I hate DRM. I used to feel a little guilty about stripping DRM from books I had purchased. But since Amazon has over reacted, I think back to the old saying "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered." Amazon became a hog when it targeted Mobileread.

[BillG]

Two (TallMonof2 and Sydney's Mom) very good and informative answers. Thank you. I'm getting a lot closer to an understanding. I was a programmer. Though I never hacked anything (my mind don't work like that). I wrote and tried to sell software (the reason for "was"), and I protected my software with license keys. So... I understand the reasons behind DRM. HOWEVER, I am in total agreement with many who have said, that getting a ebook from the library is not much different than checking a hard cover out and carrying it home. So... I will get these little programs and see what else I can learn. Seems to me, Amazon, is just trying to force folks to buy from Amazon with a somewhat heavy handed approach (as said many times in this set of posts).