Ebooks high prices - the reasons beyond

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Phogg

You lack the gullibility to believe making an ebook generally involves scanning paper manuscripts into a computer at the publisher level.

I can't imagine anyone writing books on a yellow legal pad then typing it on an old manual typewriter these days.

It is an even further stretch to ask me to believe that the editors in even the tiniest publishing house are using a red ink pen, some whiteout, and a manual typewriter to edit a book before it goes to print.

Ergot, the publishers have the book in electronic format already.

Or they are so incompetent that they need to be pushed out of the market place and are therefore no loss.

I can't swear as to their competency. They have or had electronic copies of the pages. They have a stack of electronic copies after several reviews and no body really knows which ones are the latest and which ones go with what. In addition they tend to throw them away once a master is made. They may have a PDF with all the crop marks on it but that is all.

Dale

[jj2me]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

They have or had electronic copies of the pages. They have a stack of electronic copies after several reviews and no body really knows which ones are the latest and which ones go with what. In addition they tend to throw them away once a master is made. They may have a PDF with all the crop marks on it but that is all.

Dale

Thanks for the insight. My last review of a technical book was about five years ago, and they e-mailed me a "final" copy. There could have been minor changes afterward. But that was a book co-written by two technically proficient authors 3,000 miles apart, so naturally it had to stay in electronic form till the end.

Since there is value in having a proper "source code control" of the electronic version, the question to the publishers is why don't they manage the process correctly, keeping one electronic copy as the master, forking at the last moment to the two products, eBook and paper. With their current process of throwing away the electronic copy, they throw away money (equal to the cost of converting back to eBook form). I think that is what many of us in this thread can't fathom.

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by Phogg

You lack the gullibility to believe making an ebook generally involves scanning paper manuscripts into a computer at the publisher level.

I can't imagine anyone writing books on a yellow legal pad then typing it on an old manual typewriter these days.

It is an even further stretch to ask me to believe that the editors in even the tiniest publishing house are using a red ink pen, some whiteout, and a manual typewriter to edit a book before it goes to print.

Ergot, the publishers have the book in electronic format already.

Or they are so incompetent that they need to be pushed out of the market place and are therefore no loss.

The fact that I believe the publishers have the book in electronic format was what I was implying in my post. If that was obscured by my wording, forgive me. I also do not believe that anyone would write or edit a book in today's technology-driven age using paper and pencil. My comments about scanning paper books was refering to previous posting on this thread. You and I seem to be in agreement in everything you have listed here with the exception of your use of the word, gullibility. I may be naive in my lack of knowledge regarding the publishing industry, but I am not nor have I ever been gullible. The definition is: tending to trust and believe people, and therefore easily tricked or deceived. That really doesn't apply here.
Kaz

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by kazbates

I also do not believe that anyone would write or edit a book in today's technology-driven age using paper and pencil.

I've heard a few people comment that they actually do all of their writing in longhand (surprises me, too). They may be writing poetry...

But this is clearly one of those industries where many of the major participants hold onto traditional practices with a death grip. It's only partially surprising, as print publishing hadn't changed significantly for most of a century (again, one of the few industries that can make that claim), prompting the set-in-their-ways players to naturally enter denial when change began to loom over them. It is always the people who have been so comfortable, for so long, that protest most loudly about finally having to change.

Those people also have the hardest time finally changing, and many of them simply won't make it. But in their wake, new players will emerge, embracing the new ways, and the field will enter a new phase. At this point, it's only a matter of time.

Present e-book prices reflect the present publishing business model, which is already being shaken to its core by modern demands. It will be replaced by a business model that will be adapted to the strengths of the new tech, new sales models, new consumers, and new authors, and will outright reject many of the old practices as anachronisms. The wave is coming, but it's not close to cresting yet.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I can't swear as to their competency. They have or had electronic copies of the pages. They have a stack of electronic copies after several reviews and no body really knows which ones are the latest and which ones go with what. In addition they tend to throw them away once a master is made. They may have a PDF with all the crop marks on it but that is all.

Dale

Then that is a sad indictment of the publishing industry. Version control of electronic documents is a problem that has been solved for decades now. Nothing expensive is required - there are plenty of free solutions which are happily relied upon by billion-dollar businesses (and that work very well).

/JB

[tompe]

Originally Posted by jbjb

Then that is a sad indictment of the publishing industry. Version control of electronic documents is a problem that has been solved for decades now. Nothing expensive is required - there are plenty of free solutions which are happily relied upon by billion-dollar businesses (and that work very well).

Why do you think the time is free? Using version control systems with people who are not programmers usually cost a lot of time. Even with programmers there are costs. You also have cost for backup and running a repository server. And you might have to hire somebody new that have the competence.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by tompe

Why do you think the time is free? Using version control systems with people who are not programmers usually cost a lot of time. Even with programmers there are costs. You also have cost for backup and running a repository server. And you might have to hire somebody new that have the competence.

I have to admit that I struggle to accept that. A backup and repository server costs less than a few hundred dollars these days - apart from the smallest imaginable publishers that should be a negligible cost per book.

Version control systems are really not hard to use - I really don't accept the argument that it would require too much training or other expense. Publishers are essentially in the business of managing and controlling the distribution of information. If they're not capable of doing that in a sensible way then they need a kick up the backside.

/JB

[tompe]

Originally Posted by jbjb

Publishers are essentially in the business of managing and controlling the distribution of information.

I do not think that is the business. If the business was managing information they would have looked very different. The business it to sell books and earn money. They have there old streamlined procedures that works very well for printing and selling books. Why should the change something that works to something that is more expensive?

I think you underestimate the time it takes to implement a new system and the extra time it take for people to use it. And to use it correctly. And to use it when a disk crash just before a deadline and so on.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by tompe

I do not think that is the business. If the business was managing information they would have looked very different.
The business it to sell books and earn money.

Clearly making money is the aim of the business (as is the case for every business), but, given that what they are selling is essentially intellectual property (i.e. the words written by the authors), then any failure to look after that data is simply unprofessional.

Originally Posted by tompe

They have there old streamlined procedures that works very well for printing and selling books. Why should the change something that works to something that is more expensive?

Because if DaleDe's comments are accurate then their businesses and future business opportunities are seriously compromised by their lack of control over the fundamental currency of their field.

Originally Posted by tompe

I think you underestimate the time it takes to implement a new system and the extra time it take for people to use it. And to use it correctly. And to use it when a disk crash just before a deadline and so on.

I don't believe I underestimate anything - I have some experience in this field. I'm just talking about simple competence in data management - the sort of thing every business has to come to terms with if it wants to survive. I'll bet the finance and accountancy departments of these same publishers have more control over their data than was described by DaleDe! (They'd better, otherwise they're in some trouble).

/JB

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by jbjb

I don't believe I underestimate anything - I have some experience in this field. I'm just talking about simple competence in data management - the sort of thing every business has to come to terms with if it wants to survive. I'll bet the finance and accountancy departments of these same publishers have more control over their data than was described by DaleDe! (They'd better, otherwise they're in some trouble).
/JB

I think you do underestimate. My own publisher only just started keeping pdf archive files of their own books (like in the last couple of years), and they have no usable digital version of earlier books. I know because I tried to get them. As for their financial departments, or at least their royalty departments--they're not setting any records for sharp business practices, either. (And this is a publisher that in many ways is on the cutting edge.)

People have already said this, but I want to emphasize that it's true. Most ms. files submitted by the author are never updated with final copy edits or proofreading changes. Many books are still typeset by keyboarding, rather than by converting the ms. file. (I don't know why, but it may be because of the first part--they may find it easier to type fresh than to enter changes, deal with erratic styles and formatting code in the author's ms., etc.) I know that when I correct galleys of my books, I often find typos that are not in the original file.

Understand: copy editing and proofreading are not done on computer files. They are done on paper--yes, with red pencil, or sometimes blue pencil, or even black pencil. And those corrections go back to be entered by the typesetter.

So...unless the author enters all the final changes, which is many hours of unpaid work, there really is no clean source file for an ebook. Except the PDF or the typesetter's files, neither of which is a very good source for the ebook.

Could that change? Sure. But institutional change comes slowly, costs money, probably calls for new typesetting software, and requires changing people's habits. That last may be the biggest hurdle.

As for someone's remark that costs for editing the paper book should not be carried over into the ebook, that just doesn't make sense. Of course costs for preparing the content should be amortized over all editions. Why should the ebook get a free ride? (Maybe someday, when ebooks are the standard, someone will say that the paper version shouldn't bear any of the cost for editing a book first issued as an ebook. That will be just as unreasonable.)

I suspect that most publishers figure an ebook of a hardcover should cost in the same price range as the hardcover because they don't want to undercut hardcover sales. Similarly with a paperback. I also suspect that this general thinking is erratically executed in practice, which is one reason we see such wonky ebook pricing. I'm not defending this; I'm just guessing that this is what is going on in practice.

Personally, I'd love to see all ebooks priced the way Baen does it--cheap, to sell more copies. But in the meantime, I think it's more useful to try to understand the problems than it is to demonize the publishers.

[Greg Anos]

When a cow in standing on my foot, I don't worry about understanding Bossy's problems - I just try to get her to move her foot by any means necessary. We're not trying to demonize, we're just trying to figure out how to get the publishing world to stop being in the 360 position. Becuase if they don't, to paraphrase Chairman Mao - "Let a thousand scanners bloom...". Because in the long haul, whengiven a chioce of nothing at all or something that you want that only available illegally, not everybody is going to maintain that high moral tone forever....

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

When a cow in standing on my foot, I don't worry about understanding Bossy's problems - I just try to get her to move her foot by any means necessary. We're not trying to demonize, we're just trying to figure out how to get the publishing world to stop being in the 360 position. Becuase if they don't, to paraphrase Chairman Mao - "Let a thousand scanners bloom...". Because in the long haul, whengiven a chioce of nothing at all or something that you want that only available illegally, not everybody is going to maintain that high moral tone forever....

You make it sound like it's our God-given right to have ebooks, and at a price we approve of. Hard to imagine a better way to make the more conservative publishers dig in their heels and say, "Screw 'em, they're all a bunch of pirates, anyway."

A more constructive approach might be to get people to write in to the publishers and say, "Hey, I really want to buy the latest Joe Gonzo in my [reader of choice] format! Why can't I find it? Or why is it priced so high?" Enough of those emails, and those who aren't already taking it seriously might start to. Don't expect results the next day, but keep after them.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by starrigger

You make it sound like it's our God-given right to have ebooks, and at a price we approve of. Hard to imagine a better way to make the more conservative publishers dig in their heels and say, "Screw 'em, they're all a bunch of pirates, anyway."

A more constructive approach might be to get people to write in to the publishers and say, "Hey, I really want to buy the latest Joe Gonzo in my [reader of choice] format! Why can't I find it? Or why is it priced so high?" Enough of those emails, and those who aren't already taking it seriously might start to. Don't expect results the next day, but keep after them.

That's the one thing I won't do, beg. In a capitalistic system, you make money by providing what the customer wants. You don't yawn behind your hand and tell the customer, "go away kid, you bother me". If they don't want to make money by selling me the product I want, I guaranteed they won't make money selling me something I refuse to buy because that's what they want to sell me. Between Project Gutenberg and used books, I don't have to buy a new book for the rest of my reading life, neither of which are pirating books. If they are so disconnected from the market, they deserve to Epic Fail.

I don't want this to happen, but not to the point of bowing and scraping and begging the publishing industry to please sell me what I want to buy...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

That's the one thing I won't do, beg.

Jeffrey's not talking about begging. He's talking about exercising your right as a consumer to contact the publisher and say, "Hey! I'm a potential customer of yours, and what I want is an e-book version of X at a price that isn't a King's ransom." If enough people do that, with enough books, and back it up by buying them when they are available, publishers will take notice (or not, and perish, and good riddance).

[Greg Anos]

Steve, Jeff; I apologize for being so cranky. It's just that in any other industry, a triple-digit year-over-year growth rate would be causing so much money and product development/production from companies trying to get in on the "next great thing" that it's hard to accept the "manana" (spanish for tommorrow - I don't know how to put on the tilde) attitude.