The Iron Tower + Two Ways To Appreciate Middle Earth

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Yeah, it should be simple, so that is why I am suspicious that not everything now, is quite right mentally.

I also wonder how he got the book into a digital format in the first place ... perhaps that's the clue to why Mobi.

From the Mithgar FB page: Among other things, the original was written in an eroff/troff format, and converting it to a Word-compatible RTF file will be quite error-prone and tedious. And I need it in RTF for my Legend Maker converter to turn it into a mobi file to upload to Amazon Kindle.

Actually I have no idea what he means by that.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There are some where more is better. The Discworld series by Terry Pratchett is one such series.

Totally agree there. The odd book in the series, was a somewhat lesser work, but generally I felt he kept refining and improving.

I find it is too easy for some, to discount later works, especially when done by other authors. Sure there is a large bunch of badly done continuations, but there are plenty of good ones as well, and really it is down to what each reader wants. An author may deliver for one reader but not the next. So much is tied up in expectations and desires and past experience and even some bias. Some authors keep writing for the wrong reasons.

But nothing is ever as simple as it may seem. Take Burrough's Tarzan books. He was coerced into writing many of them, and it shows. But some of the later books in the series, where he seems to be self-motivated again, are great. It would be a sad loss if we never had them.

A few good examples of continuations done by other authors, can be found in Hugh Howey's Wool (Silo) saga. He let others write in his world, and some of them are brilliant, have a magic all their own. Many are meh, and some crap, but that's what happens.

Brandon Sanderson did a brilliant job of fleshing out the finale to The Wheel Of Time series.

Unlike how George R. R. Martin has stated and seems to feel, not every great author has great world building skills, and should be forced to do that. Many are just great story tellers. Whether they use an existing world, perhaps built by another author, or just a period on Earth, at the end of the day, it is the overall story that counts. It is a bit like having to continually re-invent the wheel ... no need really. Sure it means one author is riding on the back of another, but most (maybe all) do that to some degree, in various ways. They are never half as unique as they think they are.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

From the Mithgar FB page: Among other things, the original was written in an eroff/troff format, and converting it to a Word-compatible RTF file will be quite error-prone and tedious. And I need it in RTF for my Legend Maker converter to turn it into a mobi file to upload to Amazon Kindle.

Actually I have no idea what he means by that.

I'm not really sure either, but it smacks of something old school ... older technology maybe.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by issybird

It varies with the reader, but just as one example, how many wish they'd stopped with GRRM after the third book?

I cannot say that makes sense to me, though I am aware of it ... the story just isn't complete. I know many were getting put off by the developing complexity, and others did not like where one book did not contain anything about their favorite character(s).

For me though, that is just where things started to get real interesting, and I attribute a lot of the anger toward George, to be a direct result of people left hanging not much later. Personally, I decided to not get angry at him ... he's only human, and he's entitled to make his share of stupid mistakes. So I hope he does eventually finish the story ... or changes his mind and lets another do so if he dies first ... so long as they are working off his notes.

If that doesn't happen, then maybe we will get a novelization of the TV series ending ... or maybe I will finally have to watch that, and settle for that version of events.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

I guess they hoped in the beginning that GRRM can actually get off his a$$ and finish the book series before the TV series gets that far... a naive hope, of course.

Yep, that would be it totally.

He's been good at telling himself lies ... if wishes were horses.

This is why for a few decades now, I have collected and then read ... but in his case and Robert Jordan's, I should have done better checking, as I started too soon.

Some authors I have taken a huge punt on, by collecting the whole series without reading a word of their work ... not been bitten yet. Terry Goodkind is one example of that ... got them all first. Luckily I loved them to bits ... some of his preaching aside.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Some authors I have taken a huge punt on, by collecting the whole series without reading a word of their work ... not been bitten yet. Terry Goodkind is one example of that ... got them all first. Luckily I loved them to bits ... some of his preaching aside.

That's something I could never do, because there are too many authors and series I just plain don't care about. And yep, Goodkind is one of them... didn't like Wizard's First Rule at all. It's practically impossible for me to predict before reading whether I will like an author/series or not. It's something that I learn while reading the first book.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I do think it will be a shame if GRRM never completes his series. My suspicion is that he'll finish the books once the heat dies down. I can't help but wonder if the spotlight from the show game him performance anxiety.

I think he will too ... unless he dies first ... though I suspect there is a lot more written already than he admits to.

He is sure to have gotten some anxiety, but really when you look at all he has been up to, and the degree of milking he was willing to go to, that he just spread himself too thin, and seemingly even burnt out ... lost his mojo ... probably by getting too out of touch with what he was up to ... with all that complexity especially. And he just filled his life with too many distractions.

I suspect, that he wants (just like Robert Jordan did) to get some prequel stuff out, which he has done with his latest addition - Fire & Blood. It is also probably helping him to get back in touch with where he was at, and provide a way forward perhaps ... indirectly so, maybe. Perhaps a method to overcome some kind of writer's block with significant ideas not being forthcoming otherwise.

All conjecture of course ... but seems logical to me.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

It's practically impossible for me to predict before reading whether I will like an author/series or not.

Well I have been lucky maybe, though I do at least read a small portion of what a new author writes in that first book. Just open to some page at random, midway through the book, and get a sense of their writing style.

That and the title, artwork and blurb, are usually enough for me to get a good gauge ... at least as far as an acceptable read goes. Of course that was with physical books, and not possible with many or most ebooks ... unless you are happy with what's at the start, that Amazon for instance usually shows. Beginnings can be slow though, even tedious at times, especially in a first novel, so I prefer later in the book, once the author is in their zone and their writing is flowing much better.

So strictly speaking, unlike I said earlier, I do read a few words ... but only in the first book. Of course, I don't recall those few paragraphs for very long.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

^ You might (possibly) wish to add the Gormenghast trilogy to that list.

It's by Mervyn Peake. Check it out.

It's great, in my opinion.

I second that .... a masterpiece.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

He has said that once he knows the ending, he loses the will/drive to write. That's what supposedly happened with ASOIAF. He just doesn't want to write the series anymore.

I don't doubt for a moment, that is also a contributing factor.

And it could well be, that he will now diverge even more from the TV series to make it interesting enough to continue writing.

I have read where he says it won't, but he talks in double-talk sometimes and clearly doesn't mind lying.

His biggest lie of course, being he won't work on anything else until he has finished. 12 months later we got Flesh & Blood. He's made many promises he just never keeps. I take them all with a pinch of salt now, and like he says ... it will be done when it's done. The second half of Flesh & Blood, will no doubt come out first ... maybe in 2020 if we are lucky. Don't expect to see what we really want, until at least 2021.

But you never know in this life, he may yet surprise us.

EDIT
In reality, GRRM has to finish his story or enable someone else to. If he doesn't, then he will be laughing stock, look a damn fool, and many will never read his books, certainly that series. The negativity at the end of the TV series hasn't helped either, so he kind of needs to make good. All added stresses no doubt.

It is even more of an imperative for him, than it was for Robert Jordan, who at least had a huge fan base, many of whom act out his characters, belong to clubs and so on.

There are many who persevered and are heavily invested, so if they ultimately get let down, then they won't be promoting or recommending that series, quite the opposite in many cases I reckon. So if he wants his work to live on as more than a fantasy footnote, there will need to be some kind of finalization.

[crich70]

One thing not mentioned in the OP is that Lord of the Rings could even be seen as Family Saga.This is because Aragon descends from the Neumorian (I know I'm probably misspelling it) kings which began with the brother of Elrond of Rivendell. As Elrond chose the elvish way his brother chose the human and so Aragorn and Elrond's daughter are distant cousins. And the Orcs are descended from elves that were corrupted by Morgoth at a distant time in the past. So it could altogether be considered a family saga as some of the corrupted elves may have been related to Elrond as well.

[Timboli]

To be fair to me, I wasn't intent on listing every aspect of the LOTR. And I wasn't about attacking or defending various aspects of Tolkien's work ... hence no mention of Aragorn's love affair and any blending of the races.

I guess you could say that Tolkien wrote things very black & white, which is one of the criticisms out there, and certainly the notion of corrupted Elves gives some food for The Last Ringbearer alternative view. As the author says, the winners get to have their version of the truth as the accepted one.

I cannot agree with some earlier comments, about no more worthwhile tales in Middle Earth. Tolkien spent most of his life working on his myth, fleshing out the background. So it seems quite a shame to me, and I am sure thousands of others, maybe more, that we haven't yet gotten more stories, certainly not fleshed out like the two (which is one story really) that he did. Seems poor return, great as they are, for all the time and effort he spent ... most of which, was not on that single story at all.

If you view The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings, as two separate stories, which they certainly can be .... one about a quest to recover something from a dragon, the other though related, about saving the world .... then you can do some form of comparison.

As one replier here has already said, they read and liked The Hobbit only. There are many readers out there, who have only read or finished the first story. It's an easier read, lacking most of the descriptive stuff that Tolkien added to the LOTR.

For that very reason, I have never been able to make up my mind, about which I like most. Sometimes it is The Hobbit, because the tale is simpler and moves along at a good pace. Other times, it is The Lord Of The Rings, because of a great overall story, and lots of interesting and entertaining elements, and just the sheer imagination with names and languages ... brilliant inventiveness.

If you look at The Hobbit in isolation though, it is not too hard to imagine other worthwhile stories from Middle Earth, and certainly you can form a basis of that on the many many other things, that Tolkien mentions through his writings and Appendices.

A good writer could flesh out something totally worthwhile and enjoyable, using what Tolkien has already provided. At the end of the day, as I have been saying, it is all about story for most people ... and there are plenty of great storytellers out there, that don't need to get involved in world building ... especially if it is already done.

If the Tolkien Estate (or family) were diligent enough, all the fears should be unfounded. And really, if you ask me, the movies (good as they were ... mostly), are really where their fears should really lie. In fact, they should ensure alternative movies appear sooner rather than later, to lessen those issues. In fact, I reckon a pure CGI based movie or TV series, would be the better way to go .... much easier to realize many aspects of the full story, and stay more true.

It is always tough to avoid watering down, which leads to misunderstandings, wrong impressions etc, especially when many elements are set in concrete visually (audio too), like they are in a movie, and often down to choices of the director etc ... even more so when the author is dead, and none of his family get involved. Unfortunately that is often the flaw of that medium, and why I myself prefer something less realistic to our existence. I just never bought into the Hobbits, as portrayed in the movies for instance. Gandalf was okay, as were many of the Elves, Dwarves sort of .... Orcs and Goblins etc too. And the landscape while often amazing, never really gave me the sense of Englishness as described by Tolkien.

But I must admit, that unlike many, I liked it when things did not stay true in The Hobbit movies. That made it easier to divorce the book from the movies ... at least for me. Easier to see them as just great Fantasy, with a Tolkien enhancement.

[pwalker8]

The great fear that many have is Hollywood taking the next step and makes the Tolkien universe more like GOT, i.e. adds a whole lot of sex and gore. I suppose that could happen, but I suspect it will be more like The Hobbit movie, i.e. moving more and more away from the original source material, much like the Bond movies did. I suspect that if the Aragon/LOTR prequel does well for Amazon, we might very see that.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The great fear that many have is Hollywood taking the next step and makes the Tolkien universe more like GOT, i.e. adds a whole lot of sex and gore. I suppose that could happen, but I suspect it will be more like The Hobbit movie, i.e. moving more and more away from the original source material, much like the Bond movies did. I suspect that if the Aragon/LOTR prequel does well for Amazon, we might very see that.

The Hobbit movies were awful. I loved Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings and was really looking forward to his take on The Hobbit.

Unfortunately, those movies had the baggage of following the success of The Lord of the Rings. The studio became more involved, demanding what was intended to be two movies instead be padded out to three. There's also too many awkward callbacks to LOTR characters that feel intrusive.

I watched the first one, thought it would get better and watched the second one. I never bothered watching the third one.

Think of me what you will, but the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit adaptation was truer in spirit and tone to the book than the recent trilogy was.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The great fear that many have is Hollywood taking the next step and makes the Tolkien universe more like GOT, i.e. adds a whole lot of sex and gore. I suppose that could happen, but I suspect it will be more like The Hobbit movie, i.e. moving more and more away from the original source material, much like the Bond movies did. I suspect that if the Aragon/LOTR prequel does well for Amazon, we might very see that.

There is always that fear and not much to be done about it, other than for the Tolkien Estate to back something more inline with the original. In the end it is about controlling the narrative to some degree by participating in it.

On the other hand, as I said earlier, the more different some make it, the easier for me to divorce the original books from the moving pictures in my mind, and just see those last as a fantasy that only has some relation to or bearing on Tolkien's work or that genre.

I thought the Hobbit movies were great entertainment, if you view them in isolation, and don't compare them to the book too much ... somewhat like how other onlookers might have a different take on an event ... and throw in a bit of Chinese Whispers for added distortion.

Talking about sex and gore. Some (maybe many) thought Tolkien portrayed things too clean, and thus not realistic enough ... and that is one of the elements that GRRM has been praised for ... being more realistic ... and also criticized ... particularly in the TV series. For sure, Tolkien has a somewhat Victorian attitude to some things ... no doubt a product or result of the times he grew up in.