Limited Kindle Unlimited - Page 6

darryl · 05-09-2019, 09:31 PM

@Mistyfarm. You are clearly not a lawyer. In many, perhaps most situations this would be a cause for celebration. But not when it comes to interpreting terms and conditions. You are simply wrong and scaremongering.

Of course Amazon is in business and wants to make money. This is a given that underlies all of its transactions. This doesn't change the point that the license you are granted is to read the books, which you are clearly not doing.

And please cut out the ocker Ozzie act. It is not at all averting attention from the real issues. You have still not given any indication of the number of books you "borrowed" from KU, nor details of what you were doing and why you were doing it. You have not posted any chat transcripts or support tickets, even redacted ones. Every defence of Amazon is not "taking bullets" for them. In the case of your complaint it is more like taking a wet blanket. Amazon is by no means perfect and does make mistakes. It does need to do some work on its communications once its anti-fraud type measures take effect. But from the information you have posted so far its actions in your case seem to be perfectly justified. I for one have no sympathy for what amounts to whingeing on your part.

ZodWallop · 05-09-2019, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

I wonder why Amazon decided to pay "per page read"? It's inherently impossible for them to determine that. You'd think they would pay "per book downloaded" as that is not something open to interpretation. Sure, people might download a book and not read it. But who is Amazon to care?

Paying per page read rewards better authors and theoretically improves quality. If authors were paid per download, that would mean the author that wrote the masterpiece you read all 1,400 pages of would make the same amount as the sub-literate cretin whose book you abandoned two pages in.

No matter the system, there are going to be working around it.

And it's clearly NOT impossible since Kindle books sync across devices. If you leave off at chapter ten on your Oasis and then open the Kindle app on your tablet, the book will open to chapter ten. Amazon knows where you are in a book.

If you don't like that (and I don't blame you if you don't), do what I do: Download purchased books, strip the DRM and read them on whatever device you want. But don't sign up for Kindle Unlimited which seems like a good deal to me and then complain about Amazon harvesting your clicks.

ZodWallop · 05-09-2019, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

You are clearly not a lawyer. In many, perhaps most situations this would be a cause for celebration.

Mistyfarm · 05-10-2019, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

@Mistyfarm. You are clearly not a lawyer.

Bazzinga! (I actually smiled too) Are you a lawyer and/or qualified to say that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

This doesn't change the point that the license you are granted is to read the books, which you are clearly not doing.

So you can type one word in isolation ;"READ", in bold then wax lyrically in multiple paragraphs about "READ" being the ironclad and imperative to read the book in it's entirety...... I fully quote the prohibition of 3rd party use and reference it's source but it's me who's off base? Mate, you're a pearler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

And please cut out the ocker Ozzie act.

C'mon cobber, surely you're not suggesting I'm being a fraud there too? Why are you coming out with all these haymakers? Or maybe you're embarrased to be dinky di?
Well I'm not afraid to be Australian, I even had a couple of sherbs before I started writing yesterday!

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

It is not at all averting attention from the real issues.

You're a psychologist now too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

You have still not given any indication of the number of books you "borrowed" from KU, nor details of what you were doing and why you were doing it. You have not posted any chat transcripts or support tickets, even redacted ones.

Next you'll be asking me to wash your ute and mow your lawn!!

Gotta go .... smoko's over ...... watch this space ........

Mistyfarm · 05-10-2019, 12:44 AM

haertig · 05-10-2019, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

But don't sign up for Kindle Unlimited which seems like a good deal to me and then complain about Amazon harvesting your clicks.

I can't tell, was that comment addressed to my post that you quoted? Or was it a more generic comment?

I don't think I complained about KU. Other than saying it wasn't for me in a post way back in this thread. While I didn't whine about KU harvesting clicks, you are correct in assuming that I don't like the practice. That is one of the reasons I leave my Kindle in Airplane Mode (not for KU specifically, but for all Amazon purchases).

Regarding your other comment about Amazon knowing how many pages of a book you have read:

Quote:

And it's clearly NOT impossible since Kindle books sync across devices. If you leave off at chapter ten on your Oasis and then open the Kindle app on your tablet, the book will open to chapter ten. Amazon knows where you are in a book.

...which I assume is in response to me saying:

Quote:

I wonder why Amazon decided to pay "per page read"? It's inherently impossible for them to determine that.

Well, Amazon really doesn't know. The best they know is what the current page is for a book you have. They still have no idea if you read the pages before the current page or just jumped to it randomly. And they don't know how many pages you have read if you keep your Kindle in Airplane Mode. That's why I said "it's inherently impossibly for them to determine that". They can collect data and store it over time - for example, they could log the current page and a timestamp every hour so they could see how fast you are progressing and make assumptions regarding reading or not reading based on that. This kind of data collection is getting too intrusive for me to stomach - hence me keeping my Kindle in Airplane Mode. If Amazon wants to collect this much data (and I have no idea if they actually do or not), then they can ask me politely to have it, and pay me for it. I'm not going to give it to them (or to Google, or to Microsoft) for free. Likewise, if they want to upload data they collect on me for their corporate use, they can pony up and share the monthly bill from my ISP. I don't donate my network bandwidth to corporations for free either.

ilovejedd · 05-10-2019, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

Well, Amazon really doesn't know. The best they know is what the current page is for a book you have. They still have no idea if you read the pages before the current page or just jumped to it randomly. And they don't know how many pages you have read if you keep your Kindle in Airplane Mode. That's why I said "it's inherently impossibly for them to determine that". They can collect data and store it over time - for example, they could log the current page and a timestamp every hour so they could see how fast you are progressing and make assumptions regarding reading or not reading based on that.

I'm relatively sure the Kindle is collecting those statistics as you read and storing them in the sidecar folder. Iirc, they have a predetermined time period where a page is considered read (greater than 5 seconds at least) and I believe even an upper ceiling where it's considered abandoned/unread. Easy enough to log page turn events and increase a counter for pages read if time from last tap/swipe is between the lower and upper limits.

Yes, they won't know how many pages you've read if you permanently keep your Kindle on airplane mode (purely USB transfer only). Anytime you connect to wifi though, it's a trivial matter to upload statistics (which are just a few KB).

Mistyfarm · 05-10-2019, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

If Amazon wants to collect this much data (and I have no idea if they actually do or not), then they can ask me politely to have it, and pay me for it. I'm not going to give it to them (or to Google, or to Microsoft) for free. Likewise, if they want to upload data they collect on me for their corporate use, they can pony up and share the monthly bill from my ISP. I don't donate my network bandwidth to corporations for free either.

Mistyfarm · 05-10-2019, 05:59 AM

There's 2 replies from earlier today waiting on moderators' approval ........ I'll respect the umpires decision

ZodWallop · 05-10-2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

I can't tell, was that comment addressed to my post that you quoted? Or was it a more generic comment?

It was a general comment. But...

Quote:

I don't think I complained about KU. Other than saying it wasn't for me in a post way back in this thread. While I didn't whine about KU harvesting clicks, you are correct in assuming that I don't like the practice. That is one of the reasons I leave my Kindle in Airplane Mode (not for KU specifically, but for all Amazon purchases).

Having said that, it seems to me if you don't like Amazon monitoring you, you probably shouldn't use Kindle Unlimited. There is an inherent tradeoff for having access to that firehose of streaming books.

If you don't like it, don't use Kindle Unlimited. There's nothing stopping you from moving away from Amazon entirely to Kobo.

Quote:

If Amazon wants to collect this much data (and I have no idea if they actually do or not), then they can ask me politely to have it, and pay me for it. I'm not going to give it to them (or to Google, or to Microsoft) for free. Likewise, if they want to upload data they collect on me for their corporate use, they can pony up and share the monthly bill from my ISP. I don't donate my network bandwidth to corporations for free either.

If you don't like this sort of monitoring of your usage in general, don't use the services. There's viable alternatives out there for everything. Use Duck, Duck, Go instead of Google Search. Use Firefox instead of Chrome or Edge or Safari. Use Linux or Mac instead of Microsoft Windows.

Quote:

Regarding your other comment about Amazon knowing how many pages of a book you have read:

...Well, Amazon really doesn't know. The best they know is what the current page is for a book you have. They still have no idea if you read the pages before the current page or just jumped to it randomly. And they don't know how many pages you have read if you keep your Kindle in Airplane Mode. That's why I said "it's inherently impossibly for them to determine that". They can collect data and store it over time - for example, they could log the current page and a timestamp every hour so they could see how fast you are progressing and make assumptions regarding reading or not reading based on that. This kind of data collection is getting too intrusive for me to stomach - hence me keeping my Kindle in Airplane Mode.

It feels like you're pointing to a distinction without a difference.

Mistyfarm · 05-10-2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

You have not posted any chat transcripts or support tickets, even redacted ones. Every defence of Amazon is not "taking bullets" for them. In the case of your complaint it is more like taking a wet blanket. ........................ I for one have no sympathy for what amounts to whingeing on your part.

Here ya go Dazz,

I stayed up especial just to satisfy your demands …… slightly

Here’s the DOS notification straight from the Amazon horse’s ar... err mouth (with generous, courteous privacy maintained)

I have 2 Chat Transcripts and 4 other seperate support emails to back this up.

Send me a scan of your Drivers licence as proof of your ID and I’ll forward all relevant documents directly to you, fair enough bro?

And I don’t need your sympathy, thanks …. I’m no sook.

On 3 May 2019, at 9:55 PM, Amazon.com.au <cs-reply@amazon.com.au> wrote:

Message From Customer Service
Hello XXXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting Kindle support.

I am writing in response to the email inquire we have received about the issue you are facing while downloading books from Kindle unlimited.

I have checked the details and I see that you have reached maximum number of books you can borrow per month. You will be able to borrow books in a few days once the borrow books goes below the limit in last 30 days.

To learn more about the terms and conditions please visit the link below :

https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/help/cu...deId=201556940

In case you need further assistance, please feel free to contact us and we will be more than happy to help you.

You can reach us by via Call or Chat directly and toll free from many countries by clicking the Contact Us option in the right-hand column of our Kindle Support pages at:

http://www.amazon.com.au/contactus

From Australia: 1800 285 372 (free)
Customer Service Operation Hours: 24 Hours, 7 days a week.

Thanks for using Kindle.

We look forward to seeing you again soon.

I hope you have a wonderful day!

Best regards,
Mxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Xxxxxxxxxxxx (PRIVACY as a courtesy)
Amazon.com.au

……… see if you can find the limit clause …. pretend it’s a Where’s the Wally puzzle!

haertig · 05-10-2019, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

If you don't like this sort of monitoring of your usage in general, don't use the services. There's viable alternatives out there for everything. Use Duck, Duck, Go instead of Google Search.

Check! But I do fallback to Google sometimes, more often than I'd like actually, when the other search engines don't find what I'm looking for - But I don't login to Google, don't accept their cookies, and don't allow them to run scripts (except for temporarily allowing Google Maps). I also clear offline content when I exit my browser - which obviously includes cookies, but also a bunch more stored stuff these days.

Quote:

Use Firefox instead of Chrome or Edge or Safari.

Check! Actually, I use Chromium instead of any of the others you mentioned.

Quote:

Use Linux or Mac instead of Microsoft Windows.

Check! I've been a long term Linux user and advocate, geez, for decades now?

All of your advice above is very good. I agree 100%! I also run my own VPN, Cloud server, and remote backup system rather than using third party offerings.

My job (before retirement) included tons of networking and network monitoring, security monitoring, system administration, monitoring and hardening, etc. So it's kind of ingrained in me to protect myself from the evils and prying eyes of my data hungry neighbors on the internet.

Quote:

Having said that, it seems to me if you don't like Amazon monitoring you, you probably shouldn't use Kindle Unlimited. There is an inherent tradeoff for having access to that firehose of streaming books.

No need to shy away from KU. I don't personally use it, because for me it's not worth the cost. But I have used it in the past - for a trial period with a charge of 99 cents for three months. It's worth that much. But the KU stuff, and eBooks that I purchase normally, get sideloaded only - to a Kindle that is permanently offline. That keeps the corporate data collection to a bare minimum, the way I like it. It also knocks out a few features for me - Xray, and syncing between devices - but I don't really need either of those.

I believe I also deregistered my Kindle from Amazon after initial setup (which requires registration). I'll have to go back and check. I have deregistered in the past, I should make sure I remembered to do that with the PaperWhite I currently use. Pretty sure I did a couple of years ago, but now that I'm saying I did in this post I'm thinking I better go back and make sure I really did! Registration doesn't make any difference if the Kindle is permanently offline, but security is layered, you want redundant layers protecting you.

Mistyfarm · 05-12-2019, 03:03 AM

Quick update.

I have had my access restored, over the last couple of days. I have been able to borrow again but I haven't tried too much at this stage been busy with a new grandchild.

Below is my reply to M re Amazon's DOS but have still not yet received ANY reply or advice as to what the limit actually is.

So basically my support ticket is still open as far as I’m concerned.

================
On 3 May 2019, at 11:56 PM, XXXXXXXX misty XXXXXXXXXX wrote:

Thank you M for your kind assistance,

But I have double checked your terms and conditions link provided to me by you (yes I know, I have no life) and the word “maximum" does not appear in the text and “month” appears only once in the Liability clause but is unrelated to monthly browsing limits.

Neither words appear in;
https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/help/cu...deId=201374360

Perhaps I have missed it somewhere else? Would you kindly point me specifically to the restriction you refer to so I can avoid making any mistakes in the future.

Cheers ……. (misty)

Mistyfarm · 05-12-2019, 09:32 AM

oops, spoke too soon.

Tonight I borrowed 4 books had a quick look and returned. 5th book couldn't be added be added so I Returned the 4 and then the 5th came down.

Quick look then returned ...... and now locked out again.

So it looks like their doing a "drip feed" = still NOT "Unlimited", Scamazon!!!

Deskisamess · 05-12-2019, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistyfarm

oops, spoke too soon.

Tonight I borrowed 4 books had a quick look and returned. 5th book couldn't be added be added so I Returned the 4 and then the 5th came down.

Quick look then returned ...... and now locked out again.

So it looks like their doing a "drip feed" = still NOT "Unlimited", Scamazon!!!

You realize what's happening is automated. It's not the number of books you're borrowing, it's the manner in which you're doing it.

Borrow 4, quick look, return. Lather rinse repeat. It's obvious to their algorithms that these books aren't being read. Whatever the reason may be, it looks fishy. You're not borrowing them to read them.

Read the TOS: "The Program

As a member of Kindle Unlimited, you may read Kindle books and listen to Audible audiobooks from a designated list of titles an unlimited number of times for so long as you are a member of the program. "

It doesn't say an unlimited number of books.

"Restrictions

We reserve the right to accept or refuse membership in our discretion. You may not transfer or assign your membership or any Kindle Unlimited benefits. We may take reasonable actions necessary to prevent fraud, including placing restrictions on the number of titles that can be accessed from the program at any one time."

You have no leg to stand on. I've borrowed 15-18 books since mid April and am having no problems borrowing more.

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05-09-2019, 09:31 PM	#76
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	@Mistyfarm. You are clearly not a lawyer. In many, perhaps most situations this would be a cause for celebration. But not when it comes to interpreting terms and conditions. You are simply wrong and scaremongering. Of course Amazon is in business and wants to make money. This is a given that underlies all of its transactions. This doesn't change the point that the license you are granted is to read the books, which you are clearly not doing. And please cut out the ocker Ozzie act. It is not at all averting attention from the real issues. You have still not given any indication of the number of books you "borrowed" from KU, nor details of what you were doing and why you were doing it. You have not posted any chat transcripts or support tickets, even redacted ones. Every defence of Amazon is not "taking bullets" for them. In the case of your complaint it is more like taking a wet blanket. Amazon is by no means perfect and does make mistakes. It does need to do some work on its communications once its anti-fraud type measures take effect. But from the information you have posted so far its actions in your case seem to be perfectly justified. I for one have no sympathy for what amounts to whingeing on your part.

05-10-2019, 12:44 AM	#80
Mistyfarm “Tis but a scratch!” Posts: 87 Karma: 12 Join Date: May 2019 Location: South Australia Device: Mac 2007	Dazz is getting all huffy and twisty because I won't prove beyond reasonable doubt that his logic stinks. And I know he won't be able to sleep unless I give him something to chew on. Start with this and I'll see what I can post that won't get the poor, underpaid, accented call centre huys in trouble. So, I wanted to find out as much as I could about PTSD, Suicide, depression. Did a search and there were shedloads of stuff. Some good, some awfull, most ordinary and small. I've pulled out these from my "shortlisted titles" to read. Have a look yourselves and you'll see they're mostly small and how quickly do you reckon you could quickly flick thru these to decide if you wanted to come back and fully read them? Now don't forget "Unlimited" is also being able to come back and Borrow multiple times. https://www.amazon.com.au/Unbreakabl.../dp/B00OOI0NTC https://www.amazon.com.au/Locusts-At.../dp/B07K6TXH28 https://www.amazon.com.au/What-PTSD-.../dp/B00N869LJO https://www.amazon.com.au/Married-PT.../dp/B014K03O6M https://www.amazon.com.au/War-Hard-R.../dp/B01GOAF7XY https://www.amazon.com.au/Suicide-DE.../dp/B01N5ERVBB https://www.amazon.com.au/Youre-Not-.../dp/B01M1J76P6 https://www.amazon.com.au/Its-Not-Yo.../dp/B00OF2ADL0 https://www.amazon.com.au/Healing-Me.../dp/B00U34VQE2 https://www.amazon.com.au/Overcoming.../dp/B012HTA1D2 https://www.amazon.com.au/Troubled-C.../dp/B00IOWN7LA https://www.amazon.com.au/Hidden-Wou.../dp/B078J2LNN9 https://www.amazon.com.au/My-Shipwre...dp/B010EGSCF4? https://www.amazon.com.au/Trauma-PTS.../dp/B07M75HGCL https://www.amazon.com.au/Living-PTS.../dp/B00G967VN8 https://www.amazon.com.au/Return-Har.../dp/B00IU0N6OY https://www.amazon.com.au/PTSD-Its-J.../dp/B01IS9AADG https://www.amazon.com.au/Health-Pub.../dp/B00CS94RMS https://www.amazon.com.au/WRESTLING-.../dp/B005LQXJZQ https://www.amazon.com.au/ANXIETY-EM.../dp/B00MPV08AE https://www.amazon.com.au/Sullen-Gre.../dp/B0151VSWKC https://www.amazon.com.au/Gluten-cat.../dp/B00VPDEKDO https://www.amazon.com.au/18-PTSD-Ho.../dp/B01MQOKA48 https://www.amazon.com.au/Civilian-P.../dp/B072J92CDL https://www.amazon.com.au/10-step-PT.../dp/B00VGQ7H6M https://www.amazon.com.au/Delicious-.../dp/B07NVMGLQD https://www.amazon.com.au/EPSOM-SALT.../dp/B014BUSAWE https://www.amazon.com.au/Sleep-Depr.../dp/B01BJXHL6M https://www.amazon.com.au/Been-there.../dp/B072PDB5BP https://www.amazon.com.au/Sleep-Depr.../dp/B01BJXHL6M https://www.amazon.com.au/ROAST-GARL.../dp/B01MZDRRXU https://www.amazon.com.au/Married-PT.../dp/B014K03O6M https://www.amazon.com.au/Transformi.../dp/B00AR3H2OC https://www.amazon.com.au/HOW-TAKE-C.../dp/B00AUII4DW https://www.amazon.com.au/Invisible-.../dp/B00C8U6C70 https://www.amazon.com.au/Shift-Happ.../dp/B075RR686Z https://www.amazon.com.au/Posttrauma.../dp/B07K4YR26G https://www.amazon.com.au/Yoga-traum.../dp/B07KRPB6D3 https://www.amazon.com.au/After-sire.../dp/B01ITGN5VW https://www.amazon.com.au/Interperso.../dp/B06Y5NDGWX https://www.amazon.com.au/Depression.../dp/B008BWOY60

05-10-2019, 05:59 AM	#84
Mistyfarm “Tis but a scratch!” Posts: 87 Karma: 12 Join Date: May 2019 Location: South Australia Device: Mac 2007	There's 2 replies from earlier today waiting on moderators' approval ........ I'll respect the umpires decision

05-12-2019, 03:03 AM	#88
Mistyfarm “Tis but a scratch!” Posts: 87 Karma: 12 Join Date: May 2019 Location: South Australia Device: Mac 2007	Quick update. I have had my access restored, over the last couple of days. I have been able to borrow again but I haven't tried too much at this stage been busy with a new grandchild. Below is my reply to M re Amazon's DOS but have still not yet received ANY reply or advice as to what the limit actually is. So basically my support ticket is still open as far as I’m concerned. ================ On 3 May 2019, at 11:56 PM, XXXXXXXX misty XXXXXXXXXX wrote: Thank you M for your kind assistance, But I have double checked your terms and conditions link provided to me by you (yes I know, I have no life) and the word “maximum" does not appear in the text and “month” appears only once in the Liability clause but is unrelated to monthly browsing limits. Neither words appear in; https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/help/cu...deId=201374360 Perhaps I have missed it somewhere else? Would you kindly point me specifically to the restriction you refer to so I can avoid making any mistakes in the future. Cheers ……. (misty)

05-12-2019, 09:32 AM	#89
Mistyfarm “Tis but a scratch!” Posts: 87 Karma: 12 Join Date: May 2019 Location: South Australia Device: Mac 2007	oops, spoke too soon. Tonight I borrowed 4 books had a quick look and returned. 5th book couldn't be added be added so I Returned the 4 and then the 5th came down. Quick look then returned ...... and now locked out again. So it looks like their doing a "drip feed" = still NOT "Unlimited", Scamazon!!!

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