Getting back to paper books...

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Some podcasters are going to a patron model. In general, the ethical/moral framework is there is no such thing as a free lunch. If someone can't make money creating a product, they won't create the product.

To a certain extent, the used book model was as much in response to books going out of print as it was a way to save money. I would suggest that perhaps the subscription model, might replace the used book model when it comes to ebooks. If you only read a book once and don't want to pay the full price for a book, then the subscription model ought to work.

The subscription model is definitely one answer and it does seem to be alive and well at SCRIBD and Amazon so far. A few blogs I follow are moving to a subscription/patron model. I'm still trying to keep my blog as just an Amazon associate with some sponsored giveaways, but social media has cut into blog browsing (and Amazon doesn't allow associate links on FB). It's interesting to see how things are changing. One of my very favorite blogs ever is trying to figure out how to keep going. She did her blog for free for years, but her job has changed to part time and now she has to find a way to monetize the blog or give it up and take a second job. Your Free Lunch is true. People can give things away for free for a while, but eventually it's either make money or move on.

I appreciate your insight on used books too--you're right about the out of print part of it and I think that is often forgotten. It allowed access to books for a longer period. That aspect is no longer really necessary because of POD printing and ebooks.

[LadyKate]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

That was taken to court many times long ago and the courts decided resale of books was allowed. And yes, the author gets nothing. The publisher gets nothing as well. It's just one of those things. There are those who are already fighting to be able to "resell" ebooks. Some want to resell them "one time only" other want to resell multiple times.

It's very difficult to be an author/creator/artist!

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate the reselling of ebooks. I just would like to see more of the mainstream publishers reflecting the lower production cost of ebooks in the price. For instance, Nalini Singh's latest novel has the ebook (available now) priced at a bit over 8 dollars more than the paperback (available in December). I could understand in a way if the price of the ebook was to drop to below the paperback price in December (a reflection of "I gotta get it NOW NOW NOW" cashing in by the publisher. I have to wonder how much of the production cost savings are actually passed on to the authors? Do they get more royalties for ebooks than paperbacks?).

I still find that ebook prices do not reflect the production, storage, transportation cost savings.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by LadyKate

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate the reselling of ebooks. I just would like to see more of the mainstream publishers reflecting the lower production cost of ebooks in the price. For instance, Nalini Singh's latest novel has the ebook (available now) priced at a bit over 8 dollars more than the paperback (available in December). I could understand in a way if the price of the ebook was to drop to below the paperback price in December (a reflection of "I gotta get it NOW NOW NOW" cashing in by the publisher. I have to wonder how much of the production cost savings are actually passed on to the authors? Do they get more royalties for ebooks than paperbacks?).

I still find that ebook prices do not reflect the production, storage, transportation cost savings.

I think that people underestimate the actual cost of putting out a quality book. If I remember correctly, publishers assign roughly $50K cost to an individual title to cover the basic overhead of putting out a book (editing, artwork, etc). Very little of that is in the physical cost of paper and printing or storage of the physical books. So the cost of a quality ebook, i.e. one that this well edited and has quality artwork, is more than people assume.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by LadyKate

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate the reselling of ebooks. I just would like to see more of the mainstream publishers reflecting the lower production cost of ebooks in the price. For instance, Nalini Singh's latest novel has the ebook (available now) priced at a bit over 8 dollars more than the paperback (available in December). I could understand in a way if the price of the ebook was to drop to below the paperback price in December (a reflection of "I gotta get it NOW NOW NOW" cashing in by the publisher. I have to wonder how much of the production cost savings are actually passed on to the authors? Do they get more royalties for ebooks than paperbacks?).

I still find that ebook prices do not reflect the production, storage, transportation cost savings.

There is no reason for the ebook to cost more other than the "gotta get it now" crowd so you are right, it could come down in price if the publisher were reasonable. There is a school of thought the the "instant" gratification market never goes away---see book, want to one-click to get it now, so publishers can charge a premium for the convenience. But I agree, that isn't why the publishers do it. They are still trying to control pricing and push sales of paperbacks. After all, they printed the things and they want to make sure they get rid of them all. There's also a separately counted best sellers list where the sales of print matter.

Ebook royalties are now very complicated and vary greatly from publisher to publisher. I haven't checked in with the authors I know lately, but in general the authors were making more from an ebook (not because of pricing, but because the publishers never expected to sell many so they "generously" were giving a larger cut) . That larger cut has been whittled down quite a bit in the last few years for new contracts. I don't know where it stands right now, but the fight is ongoing.

Re: How much it costs to put a book out. That cost is usually underestimated because the bulk of it tends to be the wages of the editor (acquiring and main editor) the proofreader and the copy-editor, along with overhead costs of running a publishing company. There's also usually a marketing team that, if nothing else, chimes in on whether to acquire the book so there is some salary cost there. Even if the editing is outsourced (which it usually is these days to some extent--either the copy editing, proofing or both if both are done) that runs 1200 dollars or so. The artwork is in that same neighborhood, depending on whether it's original art (usually fantasy) or stock photos. But even with stock photos, some publishers hire a separate font expert to design the fonts and placement. I worked with an artist who did work for big publishers (he did the cover for Under Withc Aura) but he didn't do the fonts for companies. He was also the photographer for cover art in cases when the publisher wanted a particular cover done. He'd do the art, the layout design and then turn it over to the font expert. For a photo shoot, he'd get more than just 1000 dollars because he was paid for the photos as well as the artwork involved in putting them together into a cover (For example, with Under Witch Aura, he did the photo of the background clouds. We bought the photo of the girl. I can't remember if he did the white feather photo himself, but I think he did that photo as well as the dream catcher photo). He did all the blending/fading in and so on. The fonts were not professionally done as we were matching the ones from book one. He did some highlighting/shadowing, but we went with that since I didn't want to change book one at the time.

Publishers don't spend much on ads or placement except for the largest names, but they are doing some advertising. I know one author whose publisher has taken out two bookbub ads--so there's a couple thousand there. I don't think the cost to produce the average book is 50k, but it's probably 5 to 10. Better selling authors get 1. more of a cut in royalties 2. better marketing budgets 3. better artwork so they are more expensive to produce, but the publishers expect to get that back. They get larger print runs of the print books too so there's actually cost savings there so long as the print copies sell.

There are several publishers now that produce only ebooks (or have an arm that does so) to save on the printing costs. They will then do print and audio if the book makes enough/sells enough. This is likely to become more common. It was the model I was using for quite a while, although I'm thinking of breaking the rules. I already have found I must have print versions and I'm considering doing audio.


The printing and storing of paperbacks/hardbacks is expensive and getting more so because shipping costs have gone up. In this last round of agreements between the publishers and Amazon, Amazon upped the cost of storing the books before shipment as well as "placement" costs on the site.

All that long and boring said, I agree with you. The ebooks should at least be the same price as the paperback, not more. It does cost me extra to print (and I only do POD) but the bulk of time and effort is done by that time.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

...
There are several publishers now that produce only ebooks (or have an arm that does so) to save on the printing costs. They will then do print and audio if the book makes enough/sells enough. This is likely to become more common. It was the model I was using for quite a while, although I'm thinking of breaking the rules. I already have found I must have print versions and I'm considering doing audio.
...

I get the impression from some of what I've read that a number of authors are going in this direction with books that are more experimental than mainstream. Try it as ebook first, then add in audiobooks if the sales justify it. When John Scalzi posted his sales figures for Locked in

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2015/08/1...re-title-2015/

Audio books lead by a pretty big margin

audiobook - 41K
ebook - 24K
Hardcover - 22.5K

and interesting delta from his redshirt sales from 2 years prior.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/01/1...re-title-2013/

audiobooks - 17K
ebook - 35.6K
Hardcover - 26.6 K

(note for those who enjoy trying to put words in my mouth, I'm not saying that Scalzi is publishing as ebook first, I'm simply using his figures to show how much audiobooks have grown and how ebook and audiobook sales compare to paper sales since he uses real figures rather than vague guesses).

[BearMountainBooks]

Audio is one of the few areas that is growing right now. Ebooks have leveled off (from a growth perspective. They are still selling well, but not growing much). Audible was making audio books more accessible and is now an Amazon company. Amazon puts audio on sale quite often. My only gripe is that if I publish audio with them, Amazon controls the pricing and because there is no competition, the share they payout is a much lower percentage than it is with ebooks (Apple is largely responsible for Amazon allowing authors to get 70 percent of a sale price with books--Amazon had to match that rate to stay competitive).

One of the problems with audio books is they are VERY expensive to produce. For me to produce one book, it would cost me around 1000 to 2500 and could take up to 3 months--of my time and also that of the person/studio doing the recording. And then if I upload to Amazon, they control the pricing. They can put it on sale, which could hamper me from being able to earn that money back in a timely fashion.

BUT. Right now, customers are willing to pay money for audio, whist for ebooks, there is a growing number that wait for free (or discounted or free for the first in series, etc).

The industry is always changing. I'm glad to see audio taking off, but I've been unable to capitalize on it, and it may not make sense given the money required upfront.

[mackles]

I tend to only by paper books in hard back and if they hold some sort of significance for me or make a good collection, for example the Harry Potter series and Lord of the Rings. Otherwise I would just end up with too many books and nowhere to keep them!

[Luv2ReadnCreate]

The only paper books I buy are art books. Everything else is ebook only. I don't have the space for tons of paper books anymore. I've got three huge bookcases full of them.

[Anthem]

To answer the OP's inquisition: I buy whatever feels right at the time.

I'm at BN last Sunday and I notice a Terry Pratchett book on sale for $6.98. Pull up the Kindle app on my phone to check the price there and it is $14.99 for the Kindle edition. Guess which one I got?

I'm reading a fantasy series right now that is physically impressive in printed form. So massive I can just hear my RSI pleading for mercy before even picking the books up. Price is identical $9.99 for the Kindle edition OR the mass market. Went with the Kindle version: which I will read on my light and comfortable idol 3 that I can easily (handily?) wield without any major strain.

I guess I'm a pragmatist. All of the formats available to us nowadays (audio, e, printed) appear to have benefits and cons as far as I can tell and why should I limit myself to only one or two of them?

[Tinks]

I mostly buy paper books for nonfiction, and ebooks for fiction. I flip back and forth in the book on nonfiction, and that would get super annoying on my kindle.

[markbot]

Originally Posted by 49Kat

I've been finding that sometimes the cost of paper books, even brand new, ends up actually being less than the ebook version. And in some cases I am able to buy the paper book for substantially less than the ebook if I am willing to purchased used and/or through a marketplace seller.

So I balance between the ease and convenience of having books I want to read on a compact electronic device, vs having more physical 'stuff' in my life.

Is anyone else finding themselves purchasing paper books again? I went for a couple of years at least of not buying any at all, and recently I've bought a dozen in the past 3 months. Not only that, but some of them are paper versions of ebooks I have because for some reason, when I am reading books whose subject matter I am studying, I prefer the paper version. Re one author whose ebooks cost as much if not more than paper versions, I have decided to purchase the paper versions, in as good condition as I can get.

I still think it's highly unreasonable for ebooks to cost as much or more than the paper versions, but so far that seems to be the way things are trending.

My order of priority
1. Free library borrow, paper or digital (at least 1/3 of my book reading)
2. Whichever is cheaper, the used hardcover/paperback or the kindle version. (split about evenly for me)

The paper version can also be resold, but this can be a hassle unless the price is high enough.

However, ebooks have many advantages over paper books, especially for technical manuals
1. Ability to search ebooks...and an entire digital library in seconds
2. Highlight, insert notes....both much better in ebooks.
3. Cloud storage of ebooks vs bookshelves for paper books. If you live in a city and therefore move around a lot, moving paper books is the biggest pain about moving.
4. ebooks are more convenient....try switching back and forth between the paper versions of War & Peace and Game of Thrones on your bus commute.
5. Looking up unfamiliar words is much easier with ebooks
6. Much quicker to acquire an ebook...no waiting or driving.

On balance, consumers should be willing to purchase ebooks for a higher price than paper books in many cases.

[murg]

Originally Posted by markbot

The paper version can also be resold, but this can be a hassle unless the price is high enough.

...

On balance, consumers should be willing to purchase ebooks for a higher price than paper books in many cases.

Not being able to resell the ebook knocks at least 25% of the list price off the value (that being what the used book shops pay for physical books).

And you haven't mentioned the cost of the ereader.

Until you've read a lot of ebooks on an ereader, the amortised cost of the ereader means that you are already paying a lot more for ebooks. For example, my current ereader, which is now over two years old, is still costing me over $2 per ebook read.

And then there is the general lack of quality in ebooks, either the bad formatting, the not fixing scan errors on any publishing of an ebook that was not originally released as an ebook (hello backlist), and, of course, the risk involved in DRM, where there is a very real possibility that you may loose access to the ebook you 'bought' if the company goes out of business (and as we've discovered, this is true even if the 'transfer' your ebooks to another vendor).

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by murg

Until you've read a lot of ebooks on an ereader, the amortised cost of the ereader means that you are already paying a lot more for ebooks. For example, my current ereader, which is now over two years old, is still costing me over $2 per ebook read.

At this point in time, I've read about 100 books on my KPW1 in the 3,5 years I own it. Having paid €129 for the reader, this comes down to a cost of €1.29 a book. In the beginning, the price drops very fast:

1 book: €129
2 books: €64.50
3 books: €43

As you read more, the price per book drops less and less.

And then there is the general lack of quality in ebooks, either the bad formatting, the not fixing scan errors on any publishing of an ebook that was not originally released as an ebook (hello backlist), and, of course, the risk involved in DRM, where there is a very real possibility that you may loose access to the ebook you 'bought' if the company goes out of business (and as we've discovered, this is true even if the 'transfer' your ebooks to another vendor).

The last few ebooks I've read were quite right good out of the store. Now I'm reading a book that's gooed enough, but it doesn't have scene breaks; not even a white line. It just jumps from one scene to another, which is quite jarring and/or confusing.

[GeoffR]

paper books have extra costs too -- bookshelves, reading lamps, freight costs to ship the books, bookshelves and reading lamps when you move house.

If my ereader broke today it would have cost me about $0.40 per ebook read, if it lasts another couple of years it should get down to $0.25 per ebook read. I think my shelving, lighting and freight costs for paper books would come to more than that.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

paper books have extra costs too -- bookshelves, reading lamps, freight costs to ship the books, bookshelves and reading lamps when you move house.

If my ereader broke today it would have cost me about $0.40 per ebook read, if it lasts another couple of years it should get down to $0.25 per ebook read. I think my shelving, lighting and freight costs for paper books would come to more than that.

You forgot time to rearrange the books when you buy new ones.