Best way to do italic and bold

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

If you are building a history ebook you can query datas for chronicles, or Index Name, for example.

Well, in theory. But this sounds more or less like indexing.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

I build a lot of ebooks, I think I *never* used <i> or <b>

Actually both has been destandardized and replaced with <em> and <strong>

[HarryT]

The fact that a tag is deprecated, though, isn't necessarily a reason not to use it. I make quite frequent use of the <center> tag, for example. Although it was deprecated in HTML 3 (or some other such ancient version), there isn't a browser or device which doesn't support it, and nor is there ever likely to be one. If you find something useful, use it, is my philosophy.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

I build a lot of ebooks, I think I *never* used <i> or <b>

Then what you are doing is adding BLOAT to your eBooks with excess code.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Actually both has been destandardized and replaced with <em> and <strong>

<i> and <b> still work and will always work because if they ever stop working, then a lot of eBooks will lose italics and bold.

And who's stupid idea was it to say "Let's add in <em> and <strong> to replace the nice simple easy to use <i> and <b>"?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And who's stupid idea was it to say "Let's add in <em> and <strong> to replace the nice simple easy to use <i> and <b>"?

Probably the same people who thought it was a good idea to get rid of the <center> tag .

[BetterRed]

I thought <em> and <strong> had to be defined within the CSS, the fact they most often have font-style: italic; and font-weight: bold; is coincidental, whereas <i> and <b> are explicit in there meaning.

And who decided on <em>. The artefact 'em' already has a well established usage within the same domain relating to character width -- why not <emph>.

Using the same 'word' with different meanings and different 'words' with same meaning... within the same knowledge domain... has long been a pet peeve of mine. The WWW sphere is the worse case I can think of, I often wonder if it's done deliberately, perhaps subconsciously, to establish a new upper class

BR

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by bookman156

Well, in theory. But this sounds more or less like indexing.

Yes. And I use it to build automatic indexes.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Then what you are doing is adding BLOAT to your eBooks with excess code.

What I'm doing is create real ebooks. Italic and bold are a analogic way to try to add information to paper. Paper, remember. We are not working on paper and typewriter, we are working with computer, so if we give computer information of data we are tagging, we are going to build real ebook, not a "look at me mama, I'm a book". This is semantic, add information to the text we are build to use it for make other things or to allow other people to use it. We formalize because we provide information to the computer that needs this. More formalize, more we can do with our ebooks.

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

Yes. And I use it to build automatic indexes.

So what is the difference between what you're doing and indexing?

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

What I'm doing is create real ebooks. Italic and bold are a analogic way to try to add information to paper. Paper, remember. We are not working on paper and typewriter, we are working with computer, so if we give computer information of data we are tagging, we are going to build real ebook, not a "look at me mama, I'm a book". This is semantic, add information to the text we are build to use it for make other things or to allow other people to use it. We formalize because we provide information to the computer that needs this. More formalize, more we can do with our ebooks.

What you're describing seems to be a lot like the margin notes I have some in multi volume leather bound editions of Macaulay and Gibbon, published early 20th century. They are short explanatory notes/reminders, quite distinct from footnotes and references. I don't have the books here, however I have a vague recollection the margin notes are indexed by their keyword/phrase - headword index is ringing a bell, and of course they both have a massive normal index - the references, notes and index for the Macaulay is an entire volume.

BR

[Toxaris]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

What I'm doing is create real ebooks. Italic and bold are a analogic way to try to add information to paper. Paper, remember. We are not working on paper and typewriter, we are working with computer, so if we give computer information of data we are tagging, we are going to build real ebook, not a "look at me mama, I'm a book". This is semantic, add information to the text we are build to use it for make other things or to allow other people to use it. We formalize because we provide information to the computer that needs this. More formalize, more we can do with our ebooks.

So, a novel cannot be a real ebook? In novels italic is used a lot for different reasons. Not because it is on paper, but because it gives you additional information. It could clarify it is a dream sequence, thoughts, emphasis, etc. I can say the same sentence in different ways and the meaning will change each time. If you hear it, you will know it. However, if you read it, you would need to guess the meaning. That is just one example where italic or bold or some other discriminator is needed, regardless if it is a paper book or an electronic book.

Sorry, you comment is nonsense. Even in normal text books italic and bold have many purposes. I cannot remember any text book from my study where italic and bold were not used.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by bookman156

So what is the difference between what you're doing and indexing?

The indexing is a product of a query. If I fomalize information I'm tagging, I can extract all the index I want. If I'm working in EPUB3 I can also give to the reader the way to query the information nested in the ebook, by javascript for example.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

What you're describing seems to be a lot like the margin notes I have some in multi volume leather bound editions of Macaulay and Gibbon, published early 20th century. They are short explanatory notes/reminders, quite distinct from footnotes and references. I don't have the books here, however I have a vague recollection the margin notes are indexed by their keyword/phrase - headword index is ringing a bell, and of course they both have a massive normal index - the references, notes and index for the Macaulay is an entire volume.

BR

Thank you, I'll take a look on internet for this. Btw I remember some medieval books with something similar you are talking about.
Anyway, the basic concept is: you are working with a digital document. Not an ebook. A ebook is a product of our digital product. You can (if you want oblivious) add more informations: you can add informations that are non-readeable from the user, but that could useful for you to end the ebook, or could be useful to add another way to access the content. Often we work on digital XHTML that will be ePub2, CMYK printing, website. The digital content has got a lot of informations I could use. A plain example: if I use the xml:lang attribute the user maybe do not see it: but a screen reader could change the voice for the right language, or a PDF render could use the correct hypenation for it.
When you meet an italic you don't have to use <i> as a robot, but ask yourself: "ok, in this paper book the author need to say something and use italic. Why? What he was going to formalize with a italic? Oh, it is a latin sentence, so <em xml:lang="la">quod erat demostrandum</em> is the correct way to handle it. Umh, maybe I can do a javascript to translate this for non-latin readers, so I can do <em xml:lang="la" title="what we had to prove">quod erat demostrandum</em>". And so on. Maybe, tomorrow, a scholar need to extract all the latin sentence from a book for a school thesys, or your publisher want to add a glossary terms section, during the work.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

So, a novel cannot be a real ebook? In novels italic is used a lot for different reasons. Not because it is on paper, but because it gives you additional information. It could clarify it is a dream sequence, thoughts, emphasis, etc.

Again: why the author is using a italic? "It is a dream sequence". Is there a "dream tag"? Not in XHTML. Maybe in TEI, I don't know (for example, in TEI we have tag for ironic sentences). XHTML give us poor poor semantics.
What I do if I have a "dream sequence"?

<div class="dream">
<p>Three times Randolph Carter dreamed of the marvellous city, and three times was he snatched away while still he paused on the high terrace above it. (et ceterae)</p>
</div>

if there is not a semantic for dreams, why fill the xhtml code of <i> to remember a typographic way to handle the text, when I can simply add a

.dream p {font-style:italic}

in css?

My point of view oblivious. And, yes, the non-novel book are more suitable to receive semantic works.