Next chapter in the saga of poor ebook formatting

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

After reading the comments in this thread, I'm wondering if some of the inconsistent formatting problems are related to the epub format itself. It seems that so much of the formatting in epub is complex because it is done indirectly (create a style, apply it to the text, and then modify the style to modify the formatting of the text) rather than directly (for italic just tag the text itself within the ebook) like in the .pdb format.

That's one of the major benefits of CSS, not a "problem" .

[Solitaire1]

I wrote the following as part of a post:

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

After reading the comments in this thread, I'm wondering if some of the inconsistent formatting problems are related to the epub format itself. It seems that so much of the formatting in epub is complex because it is done indirectly (create a style, apply it to the text, and then modify the style to modify the formatting of the text) rather than directly (for italic just tag the text itself within the ebook) like in the .pdb format.

And HarryT wrote the following in response:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's one of the major benefits of CSS, not a "problem" .

I think that it's a trade off, with advantages and disadvantages. Based on my own experience using styles in word processing, it seems that often styles make things so complicated (such as when some styles cross each other) that it makes it difficult to determine what is is causing the inconsistent formatting so that it can be corrected. Often it's easier just to use direct formatting, especially when it for a simple effect like making a small amount of text bold.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

I Often it's easier just to use direct formatting, especially when it for a simple effect like making a small amount of text bold.

For something like making couple of words bold, sure, I agree. The area where CSS is useful is when you do want to have, say, a particular style for all your chapter headings. Define a "Chapter" style, give all your chapter headings that style, and you can then globally adjust them all simply by editing that one style. It's far less error-prone that apply formatting tags individually to each one.

[murg]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's one of the major benefits of CSS, not a "problem" .

It is a problem. Especially when used by automated tools.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by murg

It is a problem. Especially when used by automated tools.

Like most other things in life, CSS styles can used correctly or incorrectly. When used correctly, they are massively beneficial compared to directly specifying the formatting of every paragraph, heading, etc. Sure they can be abused, but the problem in that case is the incorrect usage, not the styles themselves.

[murg]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

The following are my preferences:

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

After reading the comments in this thread, I'm wondering if some of the inconsistent formatting problems are related to the epub format itself. It seems that so much of the formatting in epub is complex because it is done indirectly (create a style, apply it to the text, and then modify the style to modify the formatting of the text) rather than directly (for italic just tag the text itself within the ebook) like in the .pdb format.

It isn't the EPUB format itself that's the problem, it's how people use it.

In theory, the HTML is for content, CSS for formatting. What's happening is that the line between content and formatting is getting blurred.

To my mind, content is the bits of a ebook that the author has specifically delineated. This means that you have your chapters and paragraphs. But also italics and bold, scene breaks, block quotes, etc.

Formatting is things like the indentation and spacing of paragraphs, chapter headings, whether A.M. and P.M. are presented in small text, how much space scene break consumes.

Furthermore, the integration of the CSS into the HTML is generally a dog's breakfast. For example, there is no reason that the 6000 normal paragraphs in an ebook all need to have the CSS class specified in the <p class="p1"> tag, you can just as easily set the CSS for the <p> tag to be the same as p1.

[murg]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Like most other things in life, CSS styles can used correctly or incorrectly. When used correctly, they are massively beneficial compared to directly specifying the formatting of every paragraph, heading, etc. Sure they can be abused, but the problem in that case is the incorrect usage, not the styles themselves.

And a guillotine has many useful uses.

I've seen more that enough of the insides of ebooks to say that most ebooks are not using CSS correctly. They are using the formatting to delineate content. To the publishers, this is fine, as there is no content in a physical book, only formatting.

[murg]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For something like making couple of words bold, sure, I agree. The area where CSS is useful is when you do want to have, say, a particular style for all your chapter headings. Define a "Chapter" style, give all your chapter headings that style, and you can then globally adjust them all simply by editing that one style. It's far less error-prone that apply formatting tags individually to each one.

While true in theory, not practiced this way.

Generally, you'd use a <h1> (or other heading level) tag to delineate the chapter heading. This is fine and wonderful, but rather then using the CSS to define what the <h1> tag looks like, they do this: <h1 class="c1">

What's worse is when this is defined as <div class="c1">, which removes all content from the equation.

By embedding CSS classes in all (or almost all) of the HTML tags, the designers are tying the book vary tightly to the formatting. Which is what CSS is supposed to prevent. If you used simple tags <p>, and move the formatting into the CSS (p {text-indent: 1em;}, then all you have to do to change the formatting is change the CSS file.

[DiapDealer]

I'd much rather have html that is formatted/styled with idiotic, terrible css than to have html littered with empty paragraphs for margin-(toplbottom) and inline styling. At least the former can be fixed relatively easily/quickly. It's usually easier to scrap the latter and start from scratch.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by murg

While true in theory, not practiced this way.

Generally, you'd use a <h1> (or other heading level) tag to delineate the chapter heading. This is fine and wonderful, but rather then using the CSS to define what the <h1> tag looks like, they do this: <h1 class="c1">

What's worse is when this is defined as <div class="c1">, which removes all content from the equation.

By embedding CSS classes in all (or almost all) of the HTML tags, the designers are tying the book vary tightly to the formatting. Which is what CSS is supposed to prevent. If you used simple tags <p>, and move the formatting into the CSS (p {text-indent: 1em;}, then all you have to do to change the formatting is change the CSS file.

I'm afraid that I strongly disagree with you. <h1 class="chapter-heading"> in the HTML file, and a "chapter-heading" class in the CSS file results in far more maintainable code than your suggestion. Class names should tell you what the style is used for, because you may very well want to use the same tag for many different purposes in the book.

This is probably a more appropriate topic for discussion in the "ePub" forum, though.

[dickloraine]

Originally Posted by murg

It isn't the EPUB format itself that's the problem, it's how people use it.

In theory, the HTML is for content, CSS for formatting. What's happening is that the line between content and formatting is getting blurred.

To my mind, content is the bits of a ebook that the author has specifically delineated. This means that you have your chapters and paragraphs. But also italics and bold, scene breaks, block quotes, etc.

Formatting is things like the indentation and spacing of paragraphs, chapter headings, whether A.M. and P.M. are presented in small text, how much space scene break consumes.

That is a strange view in my opinion. Why are html-tags okay, but not css classes? How do you know something is a scene-break without a class indicating it? You can't say html is content and css is formating. It depends on how someone uses it. The best use of css does both: It specifies what a paragraph is (a scene-break, a letter, etc) and then defines how that content should be formatted. The formating is only needed, so that someone reading the book can see that the text has another semantic layer. Italics for example are used for several purposes, like inner dialog, the literal word, a passage in the past etc. What it is in a text can only be understood in the concrete context. With CSS, you could give each use a different class. Not necessary needed, but I just wanted to make clear with this example, that formating often has a semantic meaning and css is a way to define this.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

After reading the comments in this thread, I'm wondering if some of the inconsistent formatting problems are related to the epub format itself. It seems that so much of the formatting in epub is complex because it is done indirectly (create a style, apply it to the text, and then modify the style to modify the formatting of the text) rather than directly (for italic just tag the text itself within the ebook) like in the .pdb format.

It is not true at all that any inconsistent formatting is due to the ePub format. Poor/inconsistent formatting is due to publishers using people t make eBooks who have no clue how to do it properly.

Most eBooks use a simple formatting and it's very easy to do it correctly. A simple CSS is what's needed. It's actually easier to do it right than it is to do it the way the publisher's do it.

[Little.Egret]

Damn you all BTW.

I got a nice new ebook and noticed that the first line (only) of the paragraph after a scene-separator was set in small caps so I had to change the font size to check that this worked right.

And it did, but I was supposed to be reading not deconstructing the formatting.

[DiapDealer]

Put the editor down and back away slowly.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

Damn you all BTW.

I got a nice new ebook and noticed that the first line (only) of the paragraph after a scene-separator was set in small caps so I had to change the font size to check that this worked right.

And it did, but I was supposed to be reading not deconstructing the formatting.

Yay!!! Another one drank the Kool-Aid!!!