Whither SF?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Thanks, but no.
I *meant* student, not reader.
...

And thanks but no I meant READER not student. Without the readers SF would be in the same sorry state as poetry is.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

The subject of the thread is less about understanding SF, and more about understanding SF's place in society. It cannot be denied that there has been a downward shift in public interest in the SF genre, just as there has been a decreasing interest in (or outright hostility towards) science in general.

However, SF has been a part of other genres for most of its lifetime, especially adventure, drama, horror and comedy. With most other genres, the sub-genre is not included with the overriding genre--for instance, City Slickers is considered a comedy, not a western, or a western comedy--and I think we've reached the point where SF can be the unstated subgenre (or, if a sub-genre descriptor is a must, to use more accurate labels to modify the main genre, ie, future drama, tech adventure, space horror, etc).

In that sense, SF is not dying; it's becoming more fully integrated into the sub-genres of modern storytelling, to the extent that in many cases it doesn't need to be highlighted or singled out as an element.

(FYI: It may be clear to some that I'm viewing this as a possible source of re-labeling my own existing and future works.)

Agreed. Particularly about the hostility towards science which may be slightly rubbing off onto pure SF (e.g. SCIENCE Fiction not fantasy pseudo-sf etc.)

[taosaur]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

In that sense, SF is not dying; it's becoming more fully integrated into the sub-genres of modern storytelling, to the extent that in many cases it doesn't need to be highlighted or singled out as an element.

Absolutely. SF has metastasized in a way that makes it often irrelevant to identify a work as such. Many works in SF settings can be defined more narrowly in terms of their content (YA, superhero, alt history, etc), and more broadly in terms of their appeal (speculative or "genre" as the terms are often used to encompass SF, fantasy and horror, and a fanbase that often likes all of the above, mashed together if at all possible).

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

The subject of the thread is less about understanding SF, and more about understanding SF's place in society. It cannot be denied that there has been a downward shift in public interest in the SF genre, just as there has been a decreasing interest in (or outright hostility towards) science in general.

Now see, I would say it's more a matter of the "SF-ness" of a work taking a background role, as you said. Look at something like NYT bestseller Ready Player One (I think it hit #1 for a bit there). It's undeniably sci-fi, but what drew people in was the cultural relevance, both the '80s fetishism and the commentary on our online interactions. Honestly, I don't think "science fiction" as a label ever had mainstream appeal. A lot of people loved Star Wars without talking about the fact that it was "science fiction." As mentioned earlier in the thread, authors have been dodging the label for almost as long as it has existed.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Of course there are! The idiot, the bumbler, the straight-man, the distraction, the mistaken identity, the mistaken meaning, the replacement, the mix-up, the out-of-context reaction, and let's not forget the over-the-top physical violence (slapstick)... all of these, and more, are classic comedy tropes. So, yes, comedy can be a "genre."

It is easier to appreciate this in the video arena: comedy sub-genres include the family sitcom, the rom-com, buddy comedies, workplace comedies, etc. Each variant has its tropes and conventions. (The precocious lil kid, the mouthy senior, the trouble-making best friend, the clueless boss, etc.)
The details and settings may change but the basic structure remains.

Some classifications *are* pure marketting but some are reflective of the nature of the material or story. And some are a matter of perception: is a fractured fairy tale a comedy or fantasy? Are Asimov's Robot Novels mysteries or SF? He wrote both genres and the stories are a blend of the tropes and techniques of both. Is THE TIME TRAVELER'S WIFE SF or romance? In the end, you have to dig deep and figure out what the story is *about* in the end.

The issue is that consumers have grown use to the shorthand of the genre labels (and preconceptions) and the conventions and tropes that go with them. Mislabeling (accidental or purposeful) can result in directing the story towards an audience that might not appreciate it for what it is. I could see higher sales but poorer reviews...

[As far as I'm concerned, the Robot Novels are about disruptive tech and culture clashes--SF--while TIME TRAVELER'S WIFE is about the relationship and emotions--romance. Other cases may not be as clear, of course...]

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Exactly. If anything it's a failure of vision on the part of some writers. There is always SF to write about right up til the bloody end.

But the argument is that the dialogoue is dying and that dialogoue is waht makes SF different than other genres such as crime and westerns. The original argument was written from an SF fans perspective. A fan that go to convention and follows the SF genre and the debate in the genre.

I get the impression that a lot of people commenting here misunderstand what SF is nad they just look at it as just another crime book.

And being aware of the SF genre's history is actually still a requirement for understanding the genre.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by taosaur

Honestly, I don't think "science fiction" as a label ever had mainstream appeal. A lot of people loved Star Wars without talking about the fact that it was "science fiction." As mentioned earlier in the thread, authors have been dodging the label for almost as long as it has existed.

Agreed... I'm seriously considering the efficacy of dodging it myself.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Are Asimov's Robot Novels mysteries or SF? He wrote both genres and the stories are a blend of the tropes and techniques of both. Is THE TIME TRAVELER'S WIFE SF or romance? In the end, you have to dig deep and figure out what the story is *about* in the end.

And then you have to decide, "do I advertise this by its most essential themes, or by a label that isn't inaccurate and will bring in the most sales?"

Mislabeling (accidental or purposeful) can result in directing the story towards an audience that might not appreciate it for what it is. I could see higher sales but poorer reviews...

Or, if it's honestly both, it just serves to increase marginalization of whatever the less-popular label is.

I read the Clan of the Cave Bear in the same month I'd read a couple of SF short stories involving Neanderthals, and automatically tagged it "Alternate history SF" in my head. It took me *years* to figure out that almost nobody else categorized it that way.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And then you have to decide, "do I advertise this by its most essential themes, or by a label that isn't inaccurate and will bring in the most sales?"

I think the question has to be answered according to whether that more accurate label would, in fact, bring in more sales. In the case of Hunger Games, for example, it was clearly decided that the more accurate label would have the opposite effect.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I read the Clan of the Cave Bear in the same month I'd read a couple of SF short stories involving Neanderthals, and automatically tagged it "Alternate history SF" in my head. It took me *years* to figure out that almost nobody else categorized it that way.

I only saw the movie, but wouldn't that have to be "Alternate pre-history SF"?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ApK

I only saw the movie, but wouldn't that have to be "Alternate pre-history SF"?

Well, yes. But it's in the same category as the "telepathic peaceful Neanderthal" stories that occasionally pop up in SF magazines. (These Neanderthals weren't particularly peaceful, and not quite telepathic. But I put "genetically-linked language & tapping into ancestral memories" into the same rough category.)

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And then you have to decide, "do I advertise this by its most essential themes, or by a label that isn't inaccurate and will bring in the most sales?"

Consider this:
"Military hero is discharged so he can go undercover infiltrating a vast criminal conspiracy involving piracy, slavery, and drug trafficking. In his quest to reach the highest levels of the conspiracy he finds himself fully participating in all the vices of his 'comrades' and slowly sinking in the same sinkhole of adiction and iniquity. Will he find the inner strength to complete his mission or be derailed by temptation?"

That marketing could fit a drama, a thriller, or a police procedural, no?

Perfectly "honest" description of the narrative, too. Definitely "not inaccurate".
But I suspect not everybody buying into that blurb would be pleased if inside they found E.E. Smith's GRAY LENSMAN.

(shrug)
SF has its native audience who will seek it, buy it, and appreciate it for what it is. They don't need to be tricked or even "eased" into reading it.

Me, if I were aiming for a non-SF audience, I would simply avoid SF trappings, themes, and concepts. Instead, I would focus on the subjects and themes that particular audience values, whether it be chills, thrills, or humor.

Not that it's a decision I will ever have to make, though.

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Consider this:
"Military hero is discharged so he can go undercover infiltrating a vast criminal conspiracy involving piracy, slavery, and drug trafficking. In his quest to reach the highest levels of the conspiracy he finds himself fully participating in all the vices of his 'comrades' and slowly sinking in the same sinkhole of adiction and iniquity. Will he find the inner strength to complete his mission or be derailed by temptation?".

Throw in a romance, and it could also be a romantic suspense or mil-romance.

aw, man, now I want to go re-read the Lensman books! They're the books I hate to love, but love 'em I do, and re-read or re-listen to them every few years.

[fjtorres]

You know, I'm getting flashbacks to High School: with nerdish kids scheming to find ways of being accepted by the "popular" jocks and cheerleaders.

SF is a niche. And a small one at that.
I'm comfortable with that.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

Throw in a romance, and it could also be a romantic suspense or mil-romance.

aw, man, now I want to go re-read the Lensman books! They're the books I hate to love, but love 'em I do, and re-read or re-listen to them every few years.

They're pretty good, no? Purple prose and all...

Clarissa got short shrift until late in the series.
But if somebody ever wises up and gives GALACTIC PATROL the Galactica treatment I'm pretty sure the Red Lensman would rock.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

Throw in a romance, and it could also be a romantic suspense or mil-romance.

aw, man, now I want to go re-read the Lensman books! They're the books I hate to love, but love 'em I do, and re-read or re-listen to them every few years.

Just another 4 years until they're in the public domain in Canada; 24 for the UK and Australia, and they should be rolling into the US PD in 2046.

(Just ignore the bitter mumblings from the corner here.)