Is Smashwords the answer?

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by BillSmithBooks

Smashwords has taken the path of removing content PayPal has told them they must and I understand that decision...at this point, there really is no alternative for them. (Short of setting up their own payment processing system, which has all kinds of hassles and ultimately you are still dealing with the credit card vendors, who appear to be true instigators behind this because of the higher fees they charge for "questionable/high chargeback" materials.)

I've never used them, but I'm given to understand there are many PayPal alternatives.

If it's the credit card vendors "behind" the censorship, it's odd how Amazon, B&N, etc. haven't had any problems with their erotica sections. For decades, even, because erotica wasn't invented by self-publishers.

[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I've never used them, but I'm given to understand there are many PayPal alternatives.

If it's the credit card vendors "behind" the censorship, it's odd how Amazon, B&N, etc. haven't had any problems with their erotica sections. For decades, even, because erotica wasn't invented by self-publishers.

There are other vendors but none with even a significant percentage of the 100 million users PayPal has.

Going with another vendor is a case of "We sell our books in Republic credits." "Ah, but no one here uses Republic credits."

Good for principle, bad for the bottom line.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by BillSmithBooks

I think Smashwords did what they had to do.

If Smashwords had just said "sorry; can't afford to find another payment processor; not going to carry this kind of content anymore," there wouldn't be half as much outcry against them. Instead, Coker posted a long letter about how it was an "oversight" that Smashwords hadn't always banned the topics PayPal no longer allows.

Paypal has always had prohibitions against "pornographic"/erotic/sexual material in its TOS, dating back to at least 98 or 99 when I joined.

"Pornographic" has no definition. Obviously, they don't forbid all sexual materials; they allow sex toys to be bought on ebay.

Both Smashwords and PayPal have the right to decide what sorts of content they will and will not carry and sell, just as I have the right to determine what sorts of political placards are allowed onto my front lawn

You can decide what's displayed on your lawn. But this isn't about your lawn, nor Paypal's; it's about their business choices. You can't decide not to do business with single mothers (in California), nor to ban gay men from your store. And while you can decide not to allow Scorpios to eat at your restaurant (because you think they're prone to skipping out on their bills), or to refuse to sell alcohol to women wearing blue eye shadow (because you think they're slutty and shouldn't be drinking), you'd be subject to public censure for either of those choices.

Smashwords has taken the path of removing content PayPal has told them they must and I understand that decision...at this point, there really is no alternative for them.

Coker didn't just remove content; he publicly insulted the people who read and write that content:

I don’t want to be a party to anyone enjoying animals for sexual gratification, for the same reason we’ve never allowed pedophilia books.

He implies that reading fiction that contains bestiality supports *actual* abuse of animals, and that fiction containing underage characters in sexual situations is advocating pedophilia.

(Short of setting up their own payment processing system, which has all kinds of hassles and ultimately you are still dealing with the credit card vendors, who appear to be true instigators behind this because of the higher fees they charge for "questionable/high chargeback" materials.)

I assure you that no credit card company allows necrophilia but not bestiality, and they don't allow explicit rapes in murder mysteries but not in romance stories. Nor do any of them have numbers indicating that ebooks of *any* sort are prone to high chargebacks. (I've been researching alternate payment systems for a while now.)

The specific form of this ban comes from PayPal, not the credit card companies, and shows both conflation of fiction to reality (implying that fiction about incest is somehow illegal, and so on) and a lack of comprehension of the variety of tropes and literary styles used in fiction.

PayPal is essentially pushing the Comstock Act on its clients. Since it's not being done by a gov't agency, it's entirely legal--but it's the same kind of attempt to control morality by controlling distribution of "questionable" materials.

Somewhere when this brouhaha first broke out, somebody proposed a kind of "SmashwordsRedlight" as a separate storefront and entity, exclusively for erotica materials and using a different payment method. This idea has lots of merit IMO.

I still see this situation as an opportunity for erotica fans, authors and publishers to band together to serve their community. Set up a storefront, get involved with the community and become independent.

Obviously, you have done little or no research into alternate payment methods. The idea's been around for a while... and any organization with several thousand dollars to put up for collateral, and a team of coders to create the shopping cart widget, will be able to do it.

Small start-up businesses are out of luck... which means that *of course* porn is known to be one of the most profitable businesses on the web, because only the ridiculously profitable ones can *have* an up-front business online.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Coker didn't just remove content; he publicly insulted the people who read and write that content:

He implies that reading fiction that contains bestiality supports *actual* abuse of animals, and that fiction containing underage characters in sexual situations is advocating pedophilia.

This. I'm so farking tired of privileged white men speaking out about things they do not understand, and particularly when the Do Not Understand topic is something like erotica which is, iiuc, largely produced and consumed by non-privileged-white-men.

I don't try to ban whatever online porn the privileged white men watch; stop banning erotic literature.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I assure you that no credit card company allows necrophilia but not bestiality, and they don't allow explicit rapes in murder mysteries but not in romance stories. Nor do any of them have numbers indicating that ebooks of *any* sort are prone to high chargebacks. (I've been researching alternate payment systems for a while now.)

The specific form of this ban comes from PayPal, not the credit card companies, and shows both conflation of fiction to reality (implying that fiction about incest is somehow illegal, and so on) and a lack of comprehension of the variety of tropes and literary styles used in fiction.

Thank you. And nice reference to "Twilight" there, assuming you meant to. If not, even better.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Obviously, you have done little or no research into alternate payment methods. The idea's been around for a while... and any organization with several thousand dollars to put up for collateral, and a team of coders to create the shopping cart widget, will be able to do it.

There are other means of taking payment , but what you just describe is a huge liability and foolish move for any company. That is why most go with a processor like Authorize.net, etc.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Thank you. And nice reference to "Twilight" there, assuming you meant to. If not, even better.

Nope; I've been editing necrophilia fic (and zombie fic, which may-or-may-not be necro fic, depending on one's definitions) for ForbiddenFiction.com.

Originally Posted by VydorScope

There are other means of taking payment , but what you just describe is a huge liability and foolish move for any company. That is why most go with a processor like Authorize.net, etc.

Most erotica publishers don't, because Authorize.net doesn't allow content that "is associated with any form of adult, sexually oriented, or obscene materials or services, including without limitation, any material clearly designed to sexually arouse the viewer/reader (e.g., books, text, photos, videos, X-rated movies, pornographic materials, etc.), any materials which require individuals to be eighteen (18) or older to view or purchase those materials, escort services, and adult websites...."

However, they don't have rules about explicit rape or incest themes, as long as they're not designed to arouse. And they don't allow romantic married explicit sex but ban underage pseudo-incest--it's all the same to them.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Most erotica publishers don't, because Authorize.net doesn't allow content that "is associated with any form of adult, sexually oriented, or obscene materials or services, including without limitation, any material clearly designed to sexually arouse the viewer/reader (e.g., books, text, photos, videos, X-rated movies, pornographic materials, etc.), any materials which require individuals to be eighteen (18) or older to view or purchase those materials, escort services, and adult websites...."

However, they don't have rules about explicit rape or incest themes, as long as they're not designed to arouse. And they don't allow romantic married explicit sex but ban underage pseudo-incest--it's all the same to them.

Then one of the others like Core, and so on. There are a bunch out there. Doing it yourself is a foolish risk, and very expensive. I do not know who and who does not allow erotica/etc because I do not travel in those circles., I do however write/maintenance this kind of code, PCI compliance, and so on as part of my day job. There are DOZENS of companies that do this stuff for various rates.

[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If Smashwords had just said "sorry; can't afford to find another payment processor; not going to carry this kind of content anymore," there wouldn't be half as much outcry against them. Instead, Coker posted a long letter about how it was an "oversight" that Smashwords hadn't always banned the topics PayPal no longer allows..

But that's the thing, this material has always been banned by PayPal's TOS...it's just that PayPal finally noticed and lowered the hammer.

Sure, Smashwords should have been more specific right up front in their guidelines as to what they will and will not publish.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

"Pornographic" has no definition. Obviously, they don't forbid all sexual materials; they allow sex toys to be bought on ebay. .

Their definition, not mine.

From PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy, see item H: (https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US)

relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.

This leaves them the discretion as to what they will and won't allow. And it does make it entirely possible that Smashwords had no idea this material would be a problem until PayPal sent their nastigram.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

You can decide what's displayed on your lawn. But this isn't about your lawn, nor Paypal's; it's about their business choices. You can't decide not to do business with single mothers (in California), nor to ban gay men from your store. And while you can decide not to allow Scorpios to eat at your restaurant (because you think they're prone to skipping out on their bills), or to refuse to sell alcohol to women wearing blue eye shadow (because you think they're slutty and shouldn't be drinking), you'd be subject to public censure for either of those choices..

This is exactly the opposite angle of the point I was trying to make, sorry I didn't make myself clear.

Smashwords is not saying they will not service a particular type of customer, they are simply saying that they will not sell a particular type of product...just as WalMart doesn't carry and sell every product in the world or just as you can't buy shoes or rifles or prescription drugs on Smashwords.

Every person and every business has a fundamental right to determine what they will and will not sell.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I assure you that no credit card company allows necrophilia but not bestiality, and they don't allow explicit rapes in murder mysteries but not in romance stories. Nor do any of them have numbers indicating that ebooks of *any* sort are prone to high chargebacks. (I've been researching alternate payment systems for a while now.).

This was a theory I had heard, that the credit card companies were pressuring PayPal on certain types of transactions.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The specific form of this ban comes from PayPal, not the credit card companies, and shows both conflation of fiction to reality (implying that fiction about incest is somehow illegal, and so on) and a lack of comprehension of the variety of tropes and literary styles used in fiction..

So there's evidence that this issue is instigated by PayPal and PayPal alone?

(And I agree, the folks at PayPal are dummies for not getting the distinction between fact and fiction.)

I still think the root of this is fear of a public blowback..."PayPal supports incest books" and all that. Nevermind that the Twilight books feature the same kinds of objectionable material.

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Obviously, you have done little or no research into alternate payment methods. The idea's been around for a while... and any organization with several thousand dollars to put up for collateral, and a team of coders to create the shopping cart widget, will be able to do it..

Small start-up businesses are out of luck... which means that *of course* porn is known to be one of the most profitable businesses on the web, because only the ridiculously profitable ones can *have* an up-front business online.

My point was, you can't force other companies to allow you to sell your products if they don't want to.

In the previous paragraph, you point to alternative methods, implying that there are lots of options...so it should seem that setting up an alternative is viable. I wasn't trying to say it was easy...I was pointing out that it is a business opportunity.

I agree that this is not a good situation at all. I'm just defending Smashwords. This is not their doing...and an alternative is not viable for them right now.

(Knowing how responsive Mark has been to the author community as a whole, I'm sure they are working very hard to find a solution to this mess.)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Then one of the others like Core, and so on.

Sent an email to Core asking about their acceptable product policies. I hadn't looked at them because they have *no info* about what they do online.

There are a bunch out there. Doing it yourself is a foolish risk, and very expensive. I do not know who and who does not allow erotica/etc because I do not travel in those circles.

I know who doesn't allow erotica/etc, which is the vast majority of payment processors, with many of the remainder requiring ridiculous amounts of money held in escrow and the right to seize all assets at a moment's notice, based on their suspicion of fraud. (One of them demands the right to physically inspect your base of operations--at your expense, you must fly their agent to your business.)

I do however write/maintenance this kind of code, PCI compliance, and so on as part of my day job. There are DOZENS of companies that do this stuff for various rates.

There are not DOZENS of companies who process erotica with underage or rape themes. The fact that these themes are staples of mainstream literature seems to have missed them; apparently, they don't mind books with these themes as long as people are not willing to admit an actual interest in them--as long as the descriptions don't tell people that's what's inside, payment processors are happy to deal with them. Books that focus on rape are just fine as long as they're marketed as "military sci-fi."

I don't mean to imply "meh, erotica publishers can just whip together some code & do it themselves." I mean that there are no good options right now--and investing in writing code and contracting with banks & credit card companies directly may be what the erotica publishers need. They may need to pool their resources and create their own online payment processor that's focused on *books* rather than video-etc-pron which is where the high-chargeback risk is. (Because there's a lot of "What's that, honey? You found a payment to HotCollegeBeotches.com on the Visa statement? How did THAT get on my credit card bill--must've been some joke site Tom at work signed me up for when we went out for drinks. I'll cancel it immediately.")

Books, including ebooks, are low risk, low chargebacks. People who buy them tend to know they want them, and returns tend to be related to merchant or marketing errors--bad formatting, incompatible-with-my-device, and so on.

Some payment providers will deal with erotica--but not with rape, underage sex, and other "extreme" content, varying by company. Most providers will deal with books containing any amount of rape, underage sex, incest, bestiality, necrophilia, you name it--as long as those books aren't marketed as erotica. There's no reason for this schism other than attempts to inflict the corporate board's sense of morality on other people.

However, I note that absolutely no payment providers have any objection to content with explicit murders, whether that's textual or visual. A friend on my blog said,
[Insert obligatory rant here about how Western culture appears to get much more upset about the possibility of a character getting their genitals caressed than they do about possibility of the character having said genitals amputated sans anaesthesia, and the rather oddly skewed priorities this displays.]

[VydorScope]

Well... we are way off topic here, and when it comes down to it, Smash made a business decision to do what they feel best for their business. That is their right. So if you want to sell/buy the kinds of things that Smash does not sell, then you will have to find another store, otherwise I find them to be a great way to distribute my books to non-Amazon stores.

[BillSmithBooks]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck;1999272
I assure you that no credit card company allows necrophilia but not bestiality, and they don't allow explicit rapes in murder mysteries but not in romance stories. Nor do any of them have numbers indicating that ebooks of *any* sort are prone to high chargebacks. (I've been researching alternate payment systems for a while now.)

The specific form of this ban comes from PayPal, not the credit card companies, and shows both conflation of fiction to reality (implying that fiction about incest is somehow illegal, and so on) and a lack of comprehension of the variety of tropes and literary styles used in fiction.

PayPal is essentially pushing the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_laws"

Comstock Act[/URL] on its clients. Since it's not being done by a gov't agency, it's entirely legal--but it's the same kind of attempt to control morality by controlling distribution of "questionable" materials.

You were right and I was wrong, this prohibition is entirely PayPal's doing:

https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2012/0...rtain-erotica/

[Lazybones]

Smashwords is having all sorts of problems right now. Their Premium Catalog process is glitched, royalties aren't being correctly displayed, and already-approved books are being marked as pending on the member Dashboard page.

According to some posts at the Smashwords Forum (not affiliated with the site), the Smashwords folks are aware of the problems and are trying to fix them. But it is a concern given the recent problems that the site has been having.

[Anna Drake]

Everything is back in order and operating as it should. It was but a temporary glitch. Yes!

[SRH59]

Originally Posted by Lazybones

Smashwords is having all sorts of problems right now. Their Premium Catalog process is glitched, royalties aren't being correctly displayed, and already-approved books are being marked as pending on the member Dashboard page.

According to some posts at the Smashwords Forum (not affiliated with the site), the Smashwords folks are aware of the problems and are trying to fix them. But it is a concern given the recent problems that the site has been having.

I actually emailed Smashwords about these problems early this morning. I've heard back from them. They are aware of the problems, and have their tech team working on it.

Hope this helps.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by SRH59

I actually emailed Smashwords about these problems early this morning. I've heard back from them. They are aware of the problems, and have their tech team working on it.

Hope this helps.

Can you contact them again and as long as the tech team are working on the site, can you get them to build in direct ePub uploading?