Sexism/racism etc in older fiction

[barryem]

Originally Posted by Froide

RE: A Time to Kill

Like you, Barry, I read the book decades ago (as I stated). However, unlike you (unfortunately), I don't have the book at hand. Therefore, I qualified my attempt to describe the passage that left a long-lasting, discomfiting impression with, "or some words to that effect", and I misremembered the detail that Grisham was not describing Carl Lee but his cellmate. (Thank you for that correction.) Nonetheless, my descriptions of my discomfiture with that part of the book and the way I handled it at the time are accurate.

You - and some downstream posters in this thread - disagree with my interpretation of, and therefore my reaction to, that passage, attributing it to the fact that I might not have gone barefoot or (as another poster surmises) spent time in the South. Good guesses, but wrong on both counts.

FYI, it's worth noting: I enjoy (most of) Grisham's writing and through it, the way he tackles many issues.

I think books change in our memory as time passes and I'm guessing that's what happened to you. I recently re-read the first Tarzan book, which I read as a small child. I'm pretty sure it was the first complete book I ever read when I was about 4. I had very little memory of the book except for one scene that occurred before Tarzan met the white eyes. He was in a tree watching a lion devour a man and not really thinking much about it. I've always remembered that scene and talked about it when that book was being discussed. But on re-reading it, the scene just wasn't there. I might have dreamed it or maybe just invented it or something. I really don't know.

As for Grisham, I liked his first several books but not because of his writing, which I thought was fair at best, but he told interesting stories. Later in his career they became stories about how bad our world is and that just doesn't interest me much and I finally gave up on them. I'll probably read some of his earlier books again in time. In particular, I'm sure I'll read "The Last Juror" again. It's easily my favorite of his books.

Barry

[Araucaria]

I'd always thought that Arthur Ransome would be pretty politically correct (having married Trotsky's secretary), but at the denouement of his Swallows & Amazons novel "The Big Six" one of the characters uses a word that has now (in editions published after the author's death) become "negroes".

It is such a celebrated occurrence that it gets a mention in that Wiki page.

It's worth noting that Ransome puts it into the mouth of one of the three working-class protagonists (Pete, of the Death and Glories). Ransome probably thought that in 1940, when the book was written, middle-class children wouldn't use the word. Ransome's dialogue is quite well tuned to the different backgrounds of the children concerned.

I first read the book in the early 1960s (myself a working class boy in SE London), but even by then the usage stuck out as anachronistic.

[Froide]

Originally Posted by barryem

I think books change in our memory as time passes and I'm guessing that's what happened to you. I recently re-read the first Tarzan book, which I read as a small child. I'm pretty sure it was the first complete book I ever read when I was about 4. I had very little memory of the book except for one scene that occurred before Tarzan met the white eyes. He was in a tree watching a lion devour a man and not really thinking much about it. I've always remembered that scene and talked about it when that book was being discussed. But on re-reading it, the scene just wasn't there. I might have dreamed it or maybe just invented it or something. I really don't know.

As for Grisham, I liked his first several books but not because of his writing, which I thought was fair at best, but he told interesting stories. Later in his career they became stories about how bad our world is and that just doesn't interest me much and I finally gave up on them. I'll probably read some of his earlier books again in time. In particular, I'm sure I'll read "The Last Juror" again. It's easily my favorite of his books.

Barry

Good points, Barry.

[BenG]

I usually read older books with an eye to when they were written. Most of them reflect the attitudes of the cultural the author was living in.
Most of us believe the things we were taught or absorbed while we were growing up unless we are forced in some way to reconsider, like, for example, the person who learns a family member is gay.

But still some older books are too much for me, especially if it's particularly malicious.

[graycyn]

To be honest, no. I quite enjoy older books, they are a step back into completely different times. Sometimes simpler times, but mostly tougher times. The world is a different place today than it was then. Frankly, I think people worry too much about the political correctness of books today. An author's writing can be enjoyable even when some bits are a sensitive topic.

I grew up reading my father's childhood books by Leo Edwards because I was an insatiable reader from the get go and no one could keep me in books, and oh my, they are like the total antithesis of political correctness. Stereotypes everywhere, the 'n' word, gangs and fights (frequently with rotten eggs or fruit) villains who were often overweight, you name it. I suppose in some ways they might even have been a bit progressive, I can remember several instances of one of the boys dressing as a girl to fool someone, LOL! They were funny and silly as heck though and all were mysteries and I still love them today.

Long live Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott! And long live laughter and not taking ourselves too seriously!

Mind you, I'd have loved to read more books with girl characters back then, I distinctly felt the lack between my father's Leo Edward books and his Hardy Boys, but I don't think it hurt me any....






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[issybird]

Originally Posted by graycyn

To be honest, no. I quite enjoy older books, they are a step back into completely different times. Sometimes simpler times, but mostly tougher times. The world is a different place today than it was then. Frankly, I think people worry too much about the political correctness of books today. An author's writing can be enjoyable even when some bits are a sensitive topic.

I grew up reading my father's childhood books by Leo Edwards because I was an insatiable reader from the get go and no one could keep me in books, and oh my, they are like the total antithesis of political correctness. Stereotypes everywhere, the 'n' word, gangs and fights (frequently with rotten eggs or fruit) villains who were often overweight, you name it. I suppose in some ways they might even have been a bit progressive, I can remember several instances of one of the boys dressing as a girl to fool someone, LOL! They were funny and silly as heck though and all were mysteries and I still love them today.

Long live Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott! And long live laughter and not taking ourselves too seriously!

Mind you, I'd have loved to read more books with girl characters back then, I distinctly felt the lack between my father's Leo Edward books and his Hardy Boys, but I don't think it hurt me any....

Oh, thank you for the smile! My father was a huge fan of Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott and I have the books he collected later in life, once he knew such a thing was possible (I just may have enabled this ). And it's particularly well-timed, as he died 19 years ago today.

I have to confess that I've never read any of the Ott or Todd books, but clearly this is a sign that I must redress the situation.

Remembering my father tonight on his anniversary. Thank you again.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by graycyn

To be honest, no. I quite enjoy older books, they are a step back into completely different times. Sometimes simpler times, but mostly tougher times. The world is a different place today than it was then. Frankly, I think people worry too much about the political correctness of books today. An author's writing can be enjoyable even when some bits are a sensitive topic.

''''''

Long live Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott! And long live laughter and not taking ourselves too seriously!

Mind you, I'd have loved to read more books with girl characters back then, I distinctly felt the lack between my father's Leo Edward books and his Hardy Boys, but I don't think it hurt me any....

I could not agree more. While Political Correctness may have begun with a desire not to offend people many now use it to justify being a fascist thought policeman.

[HLS]

I do not believe a book can be racist. In the past they were story's of what was the periods norm and way of life of that era so to me reading an old old book is looking into past and is part of history or more like a history lesson to me. Kinda like the old Fred Astaire movies. They are hard to find for the way they portrayed blacks but I love the movies for you get a glimpse of life from another era and those old banned loony tunes cartoons. I simply love them. I watched Swing Time a few months ago and I can watch fred dance all day

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by kcladyz

I do not believe a book can be racist.

Never look into The Turner Diaries. Books can be anything their authors want them to be.

In judging a book, I try to be mindful of the times it was written in.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Never look into The Turner Diaries. Books can be anything their authors want them to be.

Have you, personally, read it or just heard about it? Is it worth reading as a piece of fiction? Well written?

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by issybird

Oh, thank you for the smile! My father was a huge fan of Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott and I have the books he collected later in life, once he knew such a thing was possible (I just may have enabled this ). And it's particularly well-timed, as he died 19 years ago today.

I have to confess that I've never read any of the Ott or Todd books, but clearly this is a sign that I must redress the situation.

Remembering my father tonight on his anniversary. Thank you again.

You are welcome! My dad had just about all of them, except Jerry Todd and the Flying Flapdoodle and Poppy Ott and the Monkey's Paw. As a child, I had no idea they were out-of-print and pestered and pestered my grandmother to get them for me, which she was unable to do.

Thanks to eBay, I was able to read the missing books as an adult.

While the books (and Chatter-boxes) are not perhaps what parents might prefer to give their children today, they had a lot of good too. Sticking up for one's friends, even when scared, helping others (the boys often helped out elderly women), and encouraging kids to find ways to earn money by thinking creatively were prominent themes!

The Bert Salg illustrations were priceless!



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[graycyn]

Originally Posted by issybird

Oh, thank you for the smile! My father was a huge fan of Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott and I have the books he collected later in life, once he knew such a thing was possible (I just may have enabled this ). And it's particularly well-timed, as he died 19 years ago today.

I have to confess that I've never read any of the Ott or Todd books, but clearly this is a sign that I must redress the situation.

Remembering my father tonight on his anniversary. Thank you again.

P.S. Do read them. I guarantee they will bring a smile to your face!

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[hildea]

I've stopped reading a book once because it was so sexist it was annoying. (It was a crime story from the 1920s or thereabouts, and the women were described as so unbelievably silly they were like blonde jokes on stereoids.)

I've abandoned some series because of sexism and racism, but only modern ones. In older books, if the book is otherwise well written, it's easier to see such things with some distance, but in modern books I really expect better.

...and of course, it's easier for me to see such things with distance because I experience relatively little discrimination myself, as a white straight cisgender woman, in a majority white country which isn't too bad with regard to gender equality.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by graycyn

To be honest, no. I quite enjoy older books, they are a step back into completely different times. Sometimes simpler times, but mostly tougher times. The world is a different place today than it was then. Frankly, I think people worry too much about the political correctness of books today. An author's writing can be enjoyable even when some bits are a sensitive topic.

I grew up reading my father's childhood books by Leo Edwards because I was an insatiable reader from the get go and no one could keep me in books, and oh my, they are like the total antithesis of political correctness. Stereotypes everywhere, the 'n' word, gangs and fights (frequently with rotten eggs or fruit) villains who were often overweight, you name it. I suppose in some ways they might even have been a bit progressive, I can remember several instances of one of the boys dressing as a girl to fool someone, LOL! They were funny and silly as heck though and all were mysteries and I still love them today.

Long live Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott! And long live laughter and not taking ourselves too seriously!

Mind you, I'd have loved to read more books with girl characters back then, I distinctly felt the lack between my father's Leo Edward books and his Hardy Boys, but I don't think it hurt me any....



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Agreed. I grew up reading everything from the Maida books to Nancy Drew, to the Hardy Boys to ESG's Masons, and I've managed to avoid talking myself or Correctness so seriously that I'd deprive myself of the richness that they can bring. How can I possibly hold what Sayers wrote against her, given her time, her age, her upbringing? Would I be better off, had I never read DLS? Or Twain? I hardly think so.

Am I offended by racism, sexism, etc.? Sure, but not by people who lived 100 years ago. I'm more offended by implicit sexism in stuff made today--for example, watch ANY cop show or movie, with a scene with a screaming infant, child, or whacked-out woman. You ever see them hand the screaming brat to a male cop? Nooooooooooooooooo. They instantly turn to a woman, no matter how senior, etc. It's tooth-grindingly offensive. If somebody tried to hand that kid to me, they'd best be prepared to be thinking about prosthetics for their hands.

It's that sort of crap that gets me--not what ESG wrote to reference a black man in 1930's. Who am I to be such a patronized asshat that I'd tell ESG or Dickens or DLS what they "should have" thought and written in their day?


Hitch

[barryem]

Here's a video by Simon Winchester about Al Jolson that's very pertinent to this discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Tm7bMUhUw

It seems Jolson is thought of as a racist today because he's mostly remembered for the film "The Jazz Singer" in which he appeared a lot in blackface. In fact, he was very much not a racist in real life and helped a lot of black performers get their start. Newspapers in Harlem proclaimed him a hero and huge numbers of blacks attended his funeral.

It's hard to judge another time from our time. And given the issues we face today I'm not sure our time is so much better than the past.

Barry