Man! I hate self promoted books!

[DaringNovelist]

I just want to point out that sometimes it is not in the author's control if a friend or family member (or wannabe boy- or girl-friend) writes a review. Although my ebooks do not have reviews by friends and family, I have had "friends" review other things I've done on the internet, and believe me, when you've got a crazy person who is determined to "help" you, you can't stop them.

So please give an author a break and don't blame them for the reviews that get left. Just ignore the suspect reviews and go on to other evidence. (A bad writer is likely to leave plenty of other evidence behind. Like in the book description and the sample, and even the title and cover.)

And whoever said that they prefer Smashwords - I agree. Smashwords ROCKS. Especially in their nice long samples that allow a reader to check a book out at their leisure.

Camille

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by jaxx6166

The problem I'm finding with SW is people are too damn lazy to post a review. I see similar things on iTunes now too. You'll be lucky to get a star, at least apple asks you to rate every time you kill an app.

And the other issue with bookstore reviews is you really don't know who the reviewer is. Probably the same problem you'd have on the blog, but at least I know I'm not related to Karl Klein

I think the problem with many self-styled "reviewers" is that they don't know shit from shinola about what constitutes good writing. It's the same sort of thing I see when the silly and uninformed make claims like "I don't know about art but I know what I like." Usually in the next sentence you will hear them tell you how great Norman Rockwell was and how terrible Picasso was...

We need gatekeepers, but I am not so sure that the average reader really makes a good gatekeeper.

[ficbot]

S/he does if they have the same taste as you. I have seen this tons of times on my exercise video group. A person quickly figures out which posters have the same taste as they do and follows that person's comments. If a certain person in that group says she likes a certain dvd, I know I am likely to also enjoy it. And if she hates it, it is probably not for me.

I don't think we need people to make grand pronouncements on art in order for their thoughts to be helpful. We just need to know what they thought and why---if I say 'the book was terrible because it was riddled with spelling and grammar errors' and spelling and grammar errors are not important to you, you will disregard that review. But if I say 'the book was enjoyable because the main character had a good sense of humour' and I give an example, and you agree it's funny, the review will help you. I don't see why a person needs to be specially qualified and make grand pronouncements on art and culture.

[DaringNovelist]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

Unfortunately, I have purchased a couple of book by independent authoors on ereader.com that were just awful.
I have delicate sensitivities, and can't read crap or I get an upset stomach <G>.

So... why didn't you check out the sample before paying for it?

The crap is the easiest stuff to filter out. You can spot it in a page or two. The harder thing is filtering out the good books that are just not to your taste.

The truth is, MOST books are books I wouldn't like - this includes Pulitzer Prize winners and especially NYT Best Sellers (a few of which are not only not to my taste, but also unedited crap).

I was a slush reader (actually a script analyst, so I got to read even more illiterate crap than the NY publishers do) and I gotta say, slush isn't the problem for the end reader. Slush is hard to read for pros only because you've got to pay attention to it. You HAVE to find the books that will make money for your employer. That means you have to read it whether you like it or not.

But if you're an end customer, you don't have to pay attention at all. You can just browse through for something that grabs you, and as soon as you find it, you can stop reading the rest.

Plus if you network properly, you can find more good books than you have time to read simply through word of mouth. You don't have to trust a stranger's word. Find yourself a blog or reviewer who agrees with you a lot, and read their recommendations. Between that and a quick sample, you can cut down on your upset stomach just fine.

Camille

[MartinParish]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

I think the problem with many self-styled "reviewers" is that they don't know shit from shinola about what constitutes good writing. It's the same sort of thing I see when the silly and uninformed make claims like "I don't know about art but I know what I like." Usually in the next sentence you will hear them tell you how great Norman Rockwell was and how terrible Picasso was...

We need gatekeepers, but I am not so sure that the average reader really makes a good gatekeeper.

I agree with all of the above EXCEPT for the third sentence.

I'm certainly no art critic, and this may not be book-related, but IMHO, Picasso is vastly overrated. If the art critics like him, they can keep him. I prefer paintings of people that look like people, not hasty, ill-drawn sketches of mutants with cubes instead of heads. I know a lot of people love him, but I can't bring myself to share their taste...maybe I just don't understand art .

Other than that, however, I agree with what you're saying. We need some way to review Smashwords books or rate their quality so readers can tell the best from the rest. Gosh darn it, where are all the artificial intelligence devices the sci-fi authors always promised us! We need an AI that can speed-read through books and deliver a brief, honest summary and review of each one. That's the great thing about robots, they're so much more efficient than homo sapiens and they never get bored, too...

[DaringNovelist]

Originally Posted by MartinParish

We need some way to review Smashwords books or rate their quality so readers can tell the best from the rest.

All you really need for that is to be able to follow the reviewer's other reviews. A good way to do this is to check out the reviews on books you've already read, and pay attention to who seems to have the same tastes as yours (or at least who reviews in such a way that you can guess how you'd feel).

Then you can pay attention to that reviewer's reviews over others. It's easier on Amazon, where you can actually find out what else the reviewer has reviewed. Goodreads is another place to find reviewers. As is Shelfari And of course, there will be more and more review blogs.

Of course, a lot of these aggregators (as well as Amazon and Google) are using sophisticated software to do this for you. They note what you rate, and who else rated it the same way, and make suggestions based on that. You can find some very interesting works you never would have realized you liked by checking out their recommendations.

But it only works if you rate a lot.

Camille

[Marioninyc]

I can't say I really disagree with the idea that there is a lot of crap out there with self-published books. But haven't you ever been burned at a bookstore? I think a lot of the traditional gatekeepers have abandoned their posts and allowed plenty of crap to make it's way to bookstore shelves. In fact, I think it's one of the reasons why book sales are down and why cheap self-published e-books are actually changing the game.

My question to those who have been so disappointed with e-books is this: Were you able to sample? Didn't that give you some idea what you were in for?

Also: What alternatives to reader comments (which you know may not be reliable) have you looked into?

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by banjobama

Now that this thread has been completely hijacked (sorry, GlenBarrington), I made a social group for people interested in doing reviews. It's called the MR Book Reviewers' Guild. Interested parties please don't hesitate to join.

P.S. Thanks to Elfwreck for reminding me of the word "dreck." It's priceless!

not a problem! I think some people were starting to assume I was somehow anti-writing, or anti-self publishing. Which isn't the case. Apparently though, my frustration in this area is not unique and I'm kind of proud to have help stimulate some of the really good ideas this thread has produced.

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by Marioninyc

I can't say I really disagree with the idea that there is a lot of crap out there with self-published books. But haven't you ever been burned at a bookstore? I think a lot of the traditional gatekeepers have abandoned their posts and allowed plenty of crap to make it's way to bookstore shelves. In fact, I think it's one of the reasons why book sales are down and why cheap self-published e-books are actually changing the game.

My question to those who have been so disappointed with e-books is this: Were you able to sample? Didn't that give you some idea what you were in for?

Also: What alternatives to reader comments (which you know may not be reliable) have you looked into?

Your points are all valid. However many book purchases are impulse buys, and when an author writes a really killer promotional post with knowledge of the subject and obvious passion; I have, in the past at least, assumed this was an indication of writing and organizational skill, and that the level of quality of the promotional post was a reasonable indication of the quality of the book being promoted.

I guess my original post was, in a way, an announcement of the end of my innocence. I'm just NOT going to make those assumptions any more.

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by Marioninyc

My question to those who have been so disappointed with e-books is this: Were you able to sample? Didn't that give you some idea what you were in for?

Now? Yes. A few years ago, when Fictionwise was pretty much the only game in town? No. And they didn't allow reviews either. So if it was an indie book and not reviewed on Amazon or elsewhere, you took your chances based on the blurb. And sometimes, wound up with a lot of crapola.

Just because other sites *now* have samples does not mean this was always the case, and you should probably not be quite so presumptuous and smug about this issue You don't know how it is, or was, for every book. Now, sampling is commonplace but it was not always so and not all vendors had this feature.

[Marioninyc]

@fictionbot -- Apologies if I came off as smug or presumptuous. I didn't mean anything other than to ask the question. The opening post I thought was dealing with how things are now, and I thought referring to sites like smashwords and Kindle where samples are generally offered. In the OP the complaint referenced the suspect reader comments, so my question was trying to look at other alternatives for the poster besides simply dismissing all promotion.

[Hitech_luddite]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

I think the problem with many self-styled "reviewers" is that they don't know shit from shinola about what constitutes good writing. It's the same sort of thing I see when the silly and uninformed make claims like "I don't know about art but I know what I like." Usually in the next sentence you will hear them tell you how great Norman Rockwell was and how terrible Picasso was...

We need gatekeepers, but I am not so sure that the average reader really makes a good gatekeeper.

I think it depends just how aggressive we require the gate-keeping to be and I believe we are in danger of being too elitist.

The average reader is probably capable of identifying and holding back a flood of badly formatted works that are full of typos and ridiculous/inconsistent plot. Most readers want to be protected from unreadable works that waste their money completely. I am not sure they are looking for good or great writing.

Stylistically I regard Jeffrey Archer as a terrible novelist. Swimming through cement is easier to achieve than reaching the end of one of his books. He is however a great storyteller. It doesn't matter that his books are formulaic, his characters shallow stereotypes etc. He understands what makes a blockbuster and is a multi-millionaire with a loyal following of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. Nothing a reviewer says will ever dent that. His readers are totally concerned with plot and don't notice or care about quality of writing.

I like to think my own novella is enjoyable but it costs about as much as a burger and is similarly disposable. I am in no delusion it adds in any way to the great canon of Western literature. If however it brings a smile to a face and an hour or two of enjoyment - job done, as far as I am concerned. Not every writer aspires to great literature or every reader desires to read it.

My degree was English Literature, I think I understand what makes a good technical review of a book. Most of it is not relevant to the average reader's book choice though. I think most people are reading for pleasure and not for the quality of writing. To use your analogy it doesn't matter to them whether the picture is painted by Picasso or Rockwell as long as they didn't run out of paint half way through and the canvas isn't full of holes. Ultimately all artistic valuation is subjective. It is simply the reviewer's job to provide sufficient detail that the reader can make an informed choice.

MR is already a self-selecting elite by virtue of the fact we have access to e-readers, which are still in a price range they are not yet mass-consumer items, and most have enough disposable income to spend on e-books to fill them. By simple virtue of the fact someone spends time reading and/or posting here they obviously care about books. Personally I think the more who get involved with this project the better.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Marioninyc

@fictionbot -- The opening post I thought was dealing with how things are now, and I thought referring to sites like smashwords and Kindle where samples are generally offered. In the OP the complaint referenced the suspect reader comments, so my question was trying to look at other alternatives for the poster besides simply dismissing all promotion.

Even at Smashwords, some books offer as little as 5% for a sample--which includes the first couple of pages with the Smashwords copyright info.

With the lack of filtering that traditional publishers offer, the online ebook communities need gatekeepers or at least guides. We need people who say "if you like X in a book, here's a list of potential enjoyable reads; if you don't like Y, here's some books to avoid." And it's likely to be disorganized & scattered, especially at first, but still better than what's available now, which is "whatever the ebook stores deign to host & don't delete."

[lene1949]

I don't buy books which offer only 5-10% as a sample, unless that sample is extremely good... I feel the author is not confident his/her book is good enough further into the story.

I saw a book the other day, which had no sample at all...

[GraceKrispy]

hmm... I'm an 'average reader,' and I like to think I can tell shit from shinola. But my shit may be someone else's shinola. Obviously, it must be, if I can judge from many of the books I've read that received 5 star reviews, and I thought the book to be mediocre at best.

When I look at movie reviews, I don't always agree with the "top" critics. They may think a movie is incredible and life changing, whereas I thought it was convoluted mess that tried to hard to be artsy or important. I read fiction for the same reason I watch movies- for escape, a glimpse into another world, a chance to live in someone else's imagination for a little while. Books that fit the bill for me may not fit the bill for others. Maybe other are looking for the next War and Peace. I'm not. Maybe my shinola would be shit to those elite critics. I don't care.

I think it works best if everyone is honest about their reviews, and, as others have said, you find other reviewers who have similar tastes and you trust their reviews to be somewhat true for you as well.

I don't need any sort of 'special' reader to weed books out for me. I'd rather find average readers, like me, who have similar interests. Or, better yet, I'd rather have the author offer the first book free on smashwords, so I can read it and decide whether to purchase other books. I do purchase books by authors I've found to be good, but I don't always take chances if there are no free books to try. I never really look at the samples/excerpts available. I dislike sampling pieces of books. I want to either dive in or forget it. And if I dive into some crap, well, I got burned and maybe it's my own damn fault, and maybe it's not.