Seriously thoughtful How do you plan to prove you are a citizen?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I disagree. ID cards are all about identifying yourself, to make sure you are accorded the rights to which you are guaranteed by your government (or whoever assigned you the card). Or, to put another way, to make sure those rights are not taken from you, or mistakenly given to someone who did not earn them.

I can readily see how someone who is used to taking benefits from a system they did not support or pay into, would resent the issuance of IDs that would prevent them from doing so in the future.

I have a harder time understanding those who refuse to use ID cards that would prove that they, and not someone else, were eligible for a service their taxes and citizenship supported.

And remember: In the U.S., if you don't like your state, no one is preventing you from leaving...

Our disagreement is who is granting who rights... I feel that the US was founded upon the citizens granting the government rights, from the anarchistic freedoms naturally endowed "by the creator" (to quote Jefferson); not the government granting the citizens rights (as the government sees fit) from the total control the government has over the people under it's dominion.

If people prefer the latter, there is a large number of countries to choose from. There are <bleeping> few of the former...

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Our disagreement is who is granting who rights... I feel that the US was founded upon the citizens granting the government rights, from the anarchistic freedoms naturally endowed "by the creator" (to quote Jefferson); not the government granting the citizens rights (as the government sees fit) from the total control the government has over the people under it's dominion.

I think you need to take a look at what's been changing in the US over the past 15-20 years. It is no longer a government run by the people, and hasn't been for quite a long time.

There was a time when the police were require to show 'probable cause' before searching you, your house, or your car. No longer.
There was a time when a person on the street couldn't be picked up by un-identified people, detained without explanation, and detained for more than 48 hours without 'due process.' No longer.
And guaranteed legal representation within a reasonable time period. No longer. "Bill of Rights?" Not any more.
All that is required now to violate these 'inalienable rights' is for a legal body to say 'hey, he may be a terrorist!' And WE didn't even have a chance to vote to accept or reject this law... It just snuck through on the coat-tails of an emergency law passed in the wake of 9/11. It was supposed to end after one year, but the law was written that if it wasn't voted AGAINST after one year it became permanent. Do YOU remember anyone telling you that the voting was going to take place?
So now it's a FEDERAL CRIME to argue with a stewardess...

Stitchawl

[GlenBarrington]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

Better check those stats. Most Americans have never been more than 200 miles away from where they were born, unless they served in the Military.

Stitchawl

Prove it. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I have no reason to believe you. Cite your sources.

[Patricia]

There might be some data in the American Travel Survey:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/1995...vey/index.html

or from the Bureau of Transportation statistics:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/amer...ml/entire.html

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

Prove it. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I have no reason to believe you. Cite your sources.

Please do NOT believe me. If it's important to you, please do your own research. We are dealing with 'statistics.' Not facts.

Stitchawl

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I think a 10 question quiz containing questions on geography, science, foreign affairs, and govenment would go a long way in proving U.S. citizenship. Anyone receiving a passing grade should be looked on with suspicion. They're probably not a citizen.

I don't share your confidence. About 15 years ago new teachers who were applying for positions were asked to take the same test, in their specialty area, that high school students needed to take in order to graduate. Thus, an American history teacher was asked to take the the American history exam, the biology teacher, the biology exam, etc. Less than 50% were able to pass the exams in their subject area. So how can you expect non-"experts" to be able to pass a questionnaire?

Studies repeatedly show that the average American has little knowledge of America's history, politics, geography. Don't we see that everyday when Tea Partiers protest Obama's healthcare plan as socialism and want government hands off of medical care -- except for Medicare. Or when Sarah Palin makes false statements but great sound bites.

How many Americans know the words to the second verse of the U.S. national anthem? Or even to the first verse? Or even that there is a second verse? How many Americans can name the U.S. president during the Mexican-American War or the Spanish-American War?

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by rhadin

How many Americans know the words to the second verse of the U.S. national anthem? Or even to the first verse? Or even that there is a second verse? How many Americans can name the U.S. president during the Mexican-American War or the Spanish-American War?

Frankly... I just had to look up the name of the vice-president.
Could have been a 'Senior Moment' but I don't think so.

Stitchawl

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Our disagreement is who is granting who rights... I feel that the US was founded upon the citizens granting the government rights...

The only "right" the people granted the government was the authority to make the laws and govern by them... and therefore the people put their hands, and their trust, in that institution. The people retained the right to vote for its practitioners, on a regular basis, to keep the politicians honest and operating in the people's best interests.

That is the U.S.A's primary joint agreement, and it's too late to decide it's not convenient. That's why it is in everyone's best interests to participate in government, and make sure it works correctly. In this country, anytime the government is not working correctly, "the people" only have themselves to blame.

So, back to the card: It is up to the people to weigh in on not only whether the card is a good idea, but how it should be applied and used, and why. Do not depend on the politicians to do it for you, that is the biggest mistake this country can make (something demonstrated on a regular basis). Make the government listen to its people, or be prepared to swallow the consequences.

[CyberSmoke53]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I think a 10 question quiz containing questions on geography, science, foreign affairs, and govenment would go a long way in proving U.S. citizenship. Anyone receiving a passing grade should be looked on with suspicion. They're probably not a citizen.

This statement is often all too true sad to say!

In the state where I live you have a list of documents that you have to show to get a drivers license to prove your identity... but legal aliens who are Not Citizens also can get a state drivers license.. I don't know if they mark then or not.. A drivers license in the state shows proof of identity but as far as I know doesn't prove "citizenship" ... just proof of "legal residence in the state".

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I think a 10 question quiz containing questions on geography, science, foreign affairs, and govenment would go a long way in proving U.S. citizenship. Anyone receiving a passing grade should be looked on with suspicion. They're probably not a citizen.

Originally Posted by rhadin

I don't share your confidence. About 15 years ago new teachers who were applying for positions were asked to take the same test, in their specialty area, that high school students needed to take in order to graduate. Thus, an American history teacher was asked to take the the American history exam, the biology teacher, the biology exam, etc. Less than 50% were able to pass the exams in their subject area. So how can you expect non-"experts" to be able to pass a questionnaire?

That's what Tom's saying - if they DO get a pass grade on the exam, they're probably not a US citizen

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

I think you need to take a look at what's been changing in the US over the past 15-20 years. It is no longer a government run by the people, and hasn't been for quite a long time.

There was a time when the police were require to show 'probable cause' before searching you, your house, or your car. No longer.
There was a time when a person on the street couldn't be picked up by un-identified people, detained without explanation, and detained for more than 48 hours without 'due process.' No longer.
And guaranteed legal representation within a reasonable time period. No longer. "Bill of Rights?" Not any more.

Big deal. My grandparents, who were African-American, could say the same in their day. For that matter, so could my parents. Nothing's changed except the labels.

And "We, the People" allow it to be that way by turning our backs on the political process and not participating as were are allowed by legal right to do. So complaining about it all is pretty much pointless...

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I think a 10 question quiz containing questions on geography, science, foreign affairs, and government would go a long way in proving U.S. citizenship. Anyone receiving a passing grade should be looked on with suspicion. They're probably not a citizen.

Originally Posted by rhadin

... how can you expect non-"experts" to be able to pass a questionnaire?

Studies repeatedly show that the average American has little knowledge of America's history, politics, geography. ...

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

That's what Tom's saying - if they DO get a pass grade on the exam, they're probably not a US citizen

Exactly, Am! And another question on the exam could be to ask folks which document starts with the words We the People—the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence? Sadly, that even trips up some of our politicians!

[GeoffC]

we have a citizen's test in the UK (for immigrants); if the ones posted on the Internet and occasionally in newspapers are official ones, then I for one will fail .... miserably.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

we have a citizen's test in the UK (for immigrants); if the ones posted on the Internet and occasionally in newspapers are official ones, then I for one will fail .... miserably.

Yes - I was shocked to discover that asking someone to "step outside" was not the response you could expect if you knocked their pint over

(Disclaimer - this is taken from a 5 year old quiz on the Beeb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4099770.stm)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

Yes - I was shocked to discover that asking someone to "step outside" was not the response you could expect if you knocked their pint over

(Disclaimer - this is taken from a 5 year old quiz on the Beeb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4099770.stm)

I took that quiz... I got a 6 (and a seat on the district council!). Not bad for a Yank.