Chariots Of the Gods? Anyone read it?

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Try this one:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ic_031212.html

Here's a Nove transcript:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr..._magnetic.html

[Worldwalker]

They have the quarries. They have the tools. They have the causeways. They have the workers' houses. They have even built little pyramids to test the techniques for shaping, moving, assembling, and facing stones for the real ones. So what part of that requires aliens?

Or let's look at it another way: if aliens and super-advanced technology were involved in building the pyramids, why did it it take decades to get one up, and require housing, food service, etc., for thousands of workers? And how did they screw up so bad on the Bent Pyramid?

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by lene1949

But if there were intelligent life elsewhere, why shouldn't they visit earth, if they have the means to do so...

That is two very big "ifs"-- IF there is intelligent life elsewhere, and IF they have the means to do so.

When I say that there is likely life elsewhere, I mean any form of life, even the equivalent of a bacterium or even simpler. I mean a little green slime, not Little Green Men. Intelligent, technological life is going to be much less common than single-celled and simple life. The second question is "the means to do so." Neglecting any science fiction fantasies that we have some fundamental misunderstanding of physics and that in the future someone will discover a reasonably easy way around that pesky light speed barrier, interstellar travel is staggeringly slow and difficult. Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindboggingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. (It isn't plagiarism when I expect people to catch the reference.) Any species that happened to be advanced enough to travel interstellar distances is not going to be so unsophisticated as the clumsy buffoons believed in by UFOers.

There used to be a nice site where you could plug in the acceleration and mass of a ship and it would give you the travel time (including deceleration to the destination starting at the half-way point), relativistic mass, and amount of energy needed. That calculator looks to be gone Here is a less elegant one that won't give you the staggering energies involved, and I'm not sure if in "velocity" they calculate a steady velocity or acceleration at that rate (it was clear in the old calculator) but it will give you an idea time frames:

http://orimath.com/oritutorial/RelCalc01.html

Plugging in the speed of our fastest interstellar craft (Voyager 1) of about 17.5 km/s, reaching Proxima Centari's distance of 4.2 light years would take nearly 72,000 years. Manage to get it going 1,000 times faster? It'll still take 72 years. Of course, if you could get the ship to 0.99999 light speed, the travel time from the reference frame of the traveler would be just under a week-- but the ship's mass (from the POV of an outside observer) would have increased by more than 200 times. Good luck finding a reaction mass for that!

If you haven't before, take a look into the ideas of the Fermi Paradox and the Drake Equation.

Another question not yet asked in all this is why Earth? Given the difficulties discussed in even conceiving inter-stellar travel at all it seems totally impossible that Earth with its evolved life could have been discovered by chance while these aliens were cruising around investigating solar systems in this part of our galaxy. No they would have need some reason to come to Earth specifically. Problematic in that it is only in the last 100 years or so that man has developed and used technologies that would allow aliens from elsewhere in the galaxy to become aware of our existence.

In so far as their being life, even intelligent life, elsewhere in the universe. Given the vast number of stars in a galaxy and the vast number of galaxies in the universe I would say it is almost certain. The plausibility of a visit from one of these other intelligent life forms in a whole other matter. Not unless one expands the the meaning of a visit to included mental contact through some as yet unknown psychic process. I not saying I believe in this either, I just think it more plausible than little green men in space ships arriving.

[rock]

Hey Harry,

As I said in another post, yeah it would take thousands of years, hence the word debunked :-P

I would like to address the life forms on other planets. When almost every scientist I know believe, yes there is possibly another civilisation out there, I wonder why is it so bad to think that?

Now I think the wrong assumption is that if there an alien race, they are definitely more advanced then ours? Why? Why do they have to be more advanced? Couldn't there be another planet like ours, with a civilsation thinking the same thing as us? Or they could be primitive culture as well. I think too many people have watched science fiction moves, and when they think Alien, they think of an advanced race, but may not be the truth.

My belief is I wouldn't be surprised with how vast the galaxy is. I am not sure if there is, but I be a fool to say definitely no.

Which brings me to the point about if Aliens helped the Egyptians by giving them tools. They didn't tell them build them. Hence some of the imperfections. Let me say I do not believe that, but people keep think of Star Trek it seems when they think of what aliens are.

What I think is the Egyptians had better technology then we think (and PLEASE do not confuse technology as a computer, or electronics, the WHEEL was a form of technology, just as fire, and stone hammers were). They have drill bits that have diamond marks in them in egypt, but can't find the diamonds. Some granite blocks are so large and cut to perfection and smooth, that they cannot believe that it was just a copper hammer that did it, as they cannot recreate it themselves. Some of the stones are over 100 tons, and even with our trucks, it would take more then one heavy duty truck to lift one of the stones.

I know everyone says they had a lot of labor, but how many people would it take to move a 100 ton stone? I don't think people give the Egyptions enough credit.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rock

I would like to address the life forms on other planets. When almost every scientist I know believe, yes there is possibly another civilisation out there, I wonder why is it so bad to think that?

You can of course think what you wish. It's asserting it to be true with no evidence to back it up that's wrong.

Now I think the wrong assumption is that if there an alien race, they are definitely more advanced then ours? Why? Why do they have to be more advanced?

Two reasons:

1. If they were not more technologically advanced, they would not be capable of interstellar travel.

2. The statistics overwhelmingly favour it. The earth has been around for some 4.5 billion years. Humans have been "civilized" for - let's be generous and say about 6000 years (the first cities appears in the 4th millennium BC). That means that we have had a civilization for approximately 0.0001% of the lifetime of the Earth or, to put it another way, there has been no civilization on this planet for 99.9999% of its existance. If, therefore, another civilization does exist, the odds would be vastly remote that it would be at such an amazingly early stage of its life as ours is.

What I think is the Egyptians had better technology then we think (and PLEASE do not confuse technology as a computer, or electronics, the WHEEL was a form of technology, just as fire, and stone hammers were). They have drill bits that have diamond marks in them in egypt, but can't find the diamonds.

Evidence, please?

Some granite blocks are so large and cut to perfection and smooth, that they cannot believe that it was just a copper hammer that did it, as they cannot recreate it themselves.

So the fact the Egyptians were superb stonemasons means that they were taught be aliens? I'm sorry, but that's laughable. Egypt is a country where stone is pretty much the only building material available. Naturally they were skilled stonemasons.

I know everyone says they had a lot of labor, but how many people would it take to move a 100 ton stone?

On rollers? A few hundred. So what, when you have a workforce numbering in the hundreds of thousands available to you?

[rock]

I guess you are using the assumption about Aliens visiting us daily, so that is why they are advanced. I will just leave that alone, because really that is not a debate anyone can win.

The evidence is in a museum in England I believe. I forget the gentleman's name, but it starts with a P I believe. I got to do searching, but he believes he found a drill bit with markings that the Egyptians used diamonds. Edit. Petri Museum. Erm I only seen it in TV programs, so no picture of it.

We have trouble moving 100 tons stone today on trucks. Also from what I heard the workforce was more around 6700 not hundreds of thousands.

[Angst]

I read COTGs when I was a teenager. (This seems to be a theme running through the thread.) Utter drivel.

If you liked it, you might be interested in Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World, which attempts to debunk much of the pseudo-science out there.

[WillAdams]

Diamonds occur naturally, and Egypt had a wide trading network encompassing areas where such occur, so a diamond-tipped drill bit doesn't require aliens.

Having trouble moving something does not equal it is impossible, so that doesn't indicate aliens.

I've provided a cite of an estimate of a workforce of 20--30,000 --- I haven't seen yours for 6,700 --- even that doesn't indicate aliens, just that it would have taken longer.

Here's a bit of math for you:

http://xkcd.com/718/

William

[rock]

I didn't say it requires Aliens.

Does anyone read the part where I say I don't believe the Alien stuff, or completely ignore that? just saying. Like seriously I am ok with discussion, but I don't like when people are putting words in the things I am saying.

Saying that the Egyptians probably have methods we don't give them credit for, does not mean I am saying, Aliens gave them technology.

http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/khufu-...t-pyramid.html

From Site

Using Löhner's rope roll you don't need the huge number of workers most Egyptologists suggest. Franz Löhner calculates a total number of 6'700 workers, which were necessary to build Khufu's pyramid (including preparation and planning, quarry work, transportation by ship and on land and building the pyramid). Most of those were highly skilled craftsmen and artisans, not unskilled workers or even slaves. This is a rough estimate but it is based on relatively accurate approximations by Franz Löhner. The calculations are based on the minimum of workers necessary to finish the pyramid in 20 years time.

[HistoryWes]

[QUOTE=Hamlet53;879599]Another question not yet asked in all this is why Earth? Given the difficulties discussed in even conceiving inter-stellar travel at all it seems totally impossible that Earth with its evolved life could have been discovered by chance while these aliens were cruising around investigating solar systems in this part of our galaxy. No they would have need some reason to come to Earth specifically. QUOTE]

Come on now! This is obvious. Aliens dig Earth chicks! They are always coming after our women. Compared to Alpha Centaurians and Polarians, Earth girls are easy.

[M T McGuire]

Well, I'm embarrassed because I loved it although I never took it too seriously as a theory... more a jumping off point for ideas to write with!

I think - but don't quote me - that a lot of it is based on theories of Velikovsky; a jewish guy, trying to establish when, exactly, in history the exodus was.. I think he began to look at other texts contemporary with the old testament, for more info, mainly and discovered there are certain legends/stories/events common to all religions... as I understood it, Von Daniken took that added a bit more imaginative thought and sensationalism and there we are... I've tried to read Veilikovsky but it's incredibly dry and academic, I found Von Deniken easier to read...!

I do think his reasoning and scholarship is flawed but you know what Einstein said, "imagination is everything" there is a certain amount of stuff that is only here because things like James Bond films created a desire for it...

Cheers

M T M
bit.ly/MRF2SW
www.mtmcguire.co.uk

;-)

[NightGeometry]

I actually bought Chariots of the Gods at the weekend, thought it would be an immensely silly and amusing way to wile away some time. The first thing I did was write 'no' on the cover...

Having been to the pyramids recently (late last year), I was shocked just how big they are. I don't know why, but being up close just the sheer physicality of them was pretty mind numbing.

It is easy to see why some people end up choosing to believe aliens (I even managed not to say some simple minded people). Undoubtedly the people responsible had skills far beyond what we have today, but then when was the last time an architect nowadays was required to built a stupid big stone structure without power tools?

[rock]

Originally Posted by M T McGuire

Well, I'm embarrassed because I loved it although I never took it too seriously as a theory... more a jumping off point for ideas to write with!

I think - but don't quote me - that a lot of it is based on theories of Velikovsky; a jewish guy, trying to establish when, exactly, in history the exodus was.. I think he began to look at other texts contemporary with the old testament, for more info, mainly and discovered there are certain legends/stories/events common to all religions... as I understood it, Von Daniken took that added a bit more imaginative thought and sensationalism and there we are... I've tried to read Veilikovsky but it's incredibly dry and academic, I found Von Deniken easier to read...!

I do think his reasoning and scholarship is flawed but you know what Einstein said, "imagination is everything" there is a certain amount of stuff that is only here because things like James Bond films created a desire for it...

Cheers

M T M
bit.ly/MRF2SW
www.mtmcguire.co.uk

;-)

I see no problem with loving it. Although I think I am in Chapter 6 now (my e-reader keeps freezing, may have to send it in ). I am starting to lose interest a little bit because he is starting to go all over the place. I like the imagination of it all, and I like the fact that someone questions the norm. Just think about the pundits who said the World was round and was chastise for it. The thing is he puts question marks in a lot, I think as a safety valve so he can say, I was questioning not saying fact. I think that is where the problem lies. Like he believes that these civilisations were not smart enough to think of this stuff on their own, and I think that is really demeaning.

He does have that animated story teller about him, and it makes it easier to read, but the further I get into, it feels like he is reaching a little bit. Of course this was written in 1968 and we know a lot more today then we did then, so maybe at that time it was different.

[M T McGuire]

Originally Posted by rock

I see no problem with loving it. Although I think I am in Chapter 6 now (my e-reader keeps freezing, may have to send it in ). I am starting to lose interest a little bit because he is starting to go all over the place. I like the imagination of it all, and I like the fact that someone questions the norm. Just think about the pundits who said the World was round and was chastise for it. The thing is he puts question marks in a lot, I think as a safety valve so he can say, I was questioning not saying fact. I think that is where the problem lies. Like he believes that these civilisations were not smart enough to think of this stuff on their own, and I think that is really demeaning.

He does have that animated story teller about him, and it makes it easier to read, but the further I get into, it feels like he is reaching a little bit. Of course this was written in 1968 and we know a lot more today then we did then, so maybe at that time it was different.

I think the 1968 date says it all, think about it, people were watching, space 1999, the Man from UNCLE, Jason King, The Saint, The Avengers, Get Smart, The Prisoner... everyone was a little bit mad in those days... I expect it all seemed quite plausible... I like the bit about the 5th planet blowing up and leaving a hole though... that's cool ;-)

Cheers

M T M
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