Gizmodo: How Much It Actually Costs to Publish an Ebook vs. a Real Book - Page 5

kindlekitten · 03-02-2010, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The publishers want to window the ebooks *to avoid the discount pricing.* If they'd said, "we'll release this ebook in 90 days, at the paperback price," the outrage & entitlement-issues would be much less, possibly nonexistent. Some people would still screech & insist on finding bootleg versions, but plenty would be willing to wait, just as plenty right now wait for the paperback.

Customers weren't being offered "hardcover price ebook now or mmpb price later." They were being offered "~trade pback price, sometimes full hardcover price, only." The outrage isn't at the delay; it's at the attempt to insist that ebooks are worth $15 regardless of what the public is willing to pay for them.

And the public has reacted: No, they're not, for many people. And they *do* have ways of getting them without paying that. The issue isn't with timing, it's with publishers' insistence that ebooks be benchmarked to hardcovers instead of paperbacks.

WRONG!!! there was hell to pay when there was the artificial wait for King's last novel. many of us are saying, and I'll say it again;

release the e-book at the same time as the hardback! if it isn't there WILL be piracy!

Elfwreck · 03-02-2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

WRONG!!! there was hell to pay when there was the artificial wait for King's last novel. many of us are saying, and I'll say it again;

release the e-book at the same time as the hardback! if it isn't there WILL be piracy!

There will be piracy, period. Some illegit copies are going to float around on the web and through sneakernet no matter what the publishers do. The only sane response to that is Baen's, and the big publisher have made it clear that they can't handle that policy.

But there will be less piracy if the ebooks are reasonably priced, even if they're released later. I suspect that a $7 ebook released two months later will draw less piracy than a $15 ebook released with the hardcover. Plenty of people will wait--especially if they can pre-order the $7 version.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, because Macmillan isn't talking about $7 versions of King's new novels; they're talking about $15 versions which later drop to $10 versions, maybe, after the paperback is released.

fugazied · 03-02-2010, 06:58 PM

The different is, the piracy will be done by people who wanted to buy the book but couldn't. That is an important distinction, because a lot of piracy is done by people who had no intention of paying for the book and only picked it up because they found it free on the Internet (many of them don't even read the pirated e-book).

dmaul1114 · 03-02-2010, 07:09 PM

I do agree that the e-book should be out the same day as hardcover--just price it a bit higher than e-books that have a paperback version in print, and drop to that price level when the paper back comes out. And I agree with fugazied that doing so will help thwart piracy among those who would have bought it if it was out, which is key.

I do think it's a disgusting sense of entitlement that some people think it's ok to pirate a book just because the e-book isn't released for a couple of months after the hard cover. Having to wait a couple of months is not justification for piracy. There are millions of books out there, find something else to read while you're waiting, rather than doing the immoral act of pirating the e-book and trying to justify it through some sense of entitlement that you have a right to have an e-book the same day the hardback comes out.

The e-book SHOULD be out the same day, but the fact that sometimes it isn't doesn't excuse piracy. No one is entitled to be able to buy an e-book the same day as the hardback.

DawnFalcon · 03-02-2010, 07:37 PM

Ah yes, the moralist stance. "Do not".

Of course, the public are not paying attention. Read the Microsoft darknet paper - it makes perfectly clear the consequences of trying to limit available media. Every time you try, and every time you lecture, you are simply driving darknet traffic higher.

Why not, well, stop doing that?

The only business model which has succeeded in taking traffic from the darknet is based on low price, no DRM and high availability. This is not coincidence.

dmaul1114 · 03-02-2010, 07:49 PM

I get all that DF.

But piracy isn't the answer. The answer is boycotts, writing letters to publishers in mass etc.

All you do by pirating stuff is keeping the vicious cycle going. Consumers get annoyed, have senses of entitlement etc. They pirate more stuff. Publishers see piracy going up, get more paranoid and become even less likely to drop DRM etc.

Do the moral thing and don't pirate, but boycott that publisher. Get others to do the same. Write them everytime you want to buy an e-book that's not available or is priced higher than the cheapest print version etc.

Don't just pirate it and use some lame justifications about evil publishers etc. To wrongs do not make a right.

DawnFalcon · 03-02-2010, 07:57 PM

I'm strictly pragmatic on this issue. It's very important, at this stage of societal development (when we have a market with partial scarcity) that the companies bridging the gap between the two types of market are exposed to that market.

What happens now is going to set the rules for post-scarcity markets, and the degree of control being claimed by some companies would inevitable snowball to a scary degree, and the alternatives being offered by the darknet communities would lead to anarchy.

Trying to pretend that societal pressure will force publishers to change when their current solution-of-preference is to attempt to distort the market such that their rights are enforced by big brother is simply naive. If they cannot compete by adopting a market-acceptable business model, then they need to fail. This is, afaik, the best possible compromise available in the current situation.

Billjr13 · 03-02-2010, 08:34 PM

The only business model which has succeeded in taking traffic from the darknet is based on low price, no DRM and high availability. This is not coincidence.

Yeah Entitlement. Give me what I want, make it free or really cheap, make it easy to copy, or I will take it anyway without paying and give it to anybody who asks for it so they wont pay for it too. I'm Entitled to take whats not mine because I want it and you cant stop me.

Sounds like a bunch of petulant children justifying there bad behavior. "I want it I am going to take it and you cant stop me." "If it is on the internet it belongs to everyone, so I dont have to pay for it;" is a poor attitude and if you were the creative one and people were taking your work you wouldn't like it.

DawnFalcon · 03-02-2010, 09:18 PM

I work in a creative industry.
I've seen my work on the darknets.

It's not a matter of like or dislike, it's a matter of practicality. The important thing is maximum return. And the moment you jack up the price, add DRM or reduce availability (let alone all these at once), sales fall.

(This is not saying "do nothing", it's "be very careful what you do", and carrots work far better than sticks!)

I'll stick with what works, while you do your moralist lecture. The only problem is you're pushing more people towards the darknet because they don't like being lectured at. The important thing is to allow the market to sort this out: inefficient processes like DRM have to be allowed to fail in the market!

You see "petulant children", I see an emerging EU-wide political party with excellent organisation capacity growing at a rapid rate, which already has a foothold at both EU and National levels, and will lead a backlash against shielding IP-creating companies from the full range of market conditions present at this time.

Guns4Hire · 03-03-2010, 03:47 AM

http://mayareynoldswriter.blogspot.c...vs-p-book.html

Author's take on the New York Times article which is where Gizmodo got some of their information from.

carbonize · 03-03-2010, 04:10 AM

Is there not already a website where unsigned authors can upload their works and charge for them if they wanted to? I mean look at some of the musicians/singers who got a contract due to getting a following on MySpace or similar. Maybe if unsigned authors did start to sell their own works then the publishers might take note or maybe sign a few of them. I suppose you could use Amazon but I was thinking more a dedicated ebook site with reviews.

kindlekitten · 03-03-2010, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbonize

Is there not already a website where unsigned authors can upload their works and charge for them if they wanted to? I mean look at some of the musicians/singers who got a contract due to getting a following on MySpace or similar. Maybe if unsigned authors did start to sell their own works then the publishers might take note or maybe sign a few of them. I suppose you could use Amazon but I was thinking more a dedicated ebook site with reviews.

they can at Amazon

carbonize · 03-03-2010, 07:59 AM

Yes but at Amazon their work would just get lost amongst the millions of other items Amazon sells. I'm talking more a site dedicated to selling, or even giving away, ebooks direct from the authors. Then you can have things like top ten downloaded books, top rated and so on. Of course the site would either have to take a cut or charge a fee of some description but I think a site like that could help unsigned authors.

charleski · 03-03-2010, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guns4Hire

http://mayareynoldswriter.blogspot.c...vs-p-book.html

Author's take on the New York Times article which is where Gizmodo got some of their information from.

A bit too much digital fantasizing going on in that article. For instance: "One of the reasons e-books only constitute 3% to 5% of total sales is that the Big Six are doing everything they can to impede the growth of e-books," ignores the fact that lots of people would still choose not to spend $300 upfront on a device just so they can read a book.

@Billjr13: ++ Pretty much spot-on concerning the attitudes of some people around here.

DawnFalcon · 03-03-2010, 08:35 AM

Except of course you don't need to, given most people have a PC! Not to mention a smartphone or a PDA...

03-02-2010, 07:37 PM	#65
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Ah yes, the moralist stance. "Do not". Of course, the public are not paying attention. Read the Microsoft darknet paper - it makes perfectly clear the consequences of trying to limit available media. Every time you try, and every time you lecture, you are simply driving darknet traffic higher. Why not, well, stop doing that? The only business model which has succeeded in taking traffic from the darknet is based on low price, no DRM and high availability. This is not coincidence. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 03-02-2010 at 07:40 PM.

03-02-2010, 07:57 PM	#67
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	I'm strictly pragmatic on this issue. It's very important, at this stage of societal development (when we have a market with partial scarcity) that the companies bridging the gap between the two types of market are exposed to that market. What happens now is going to set the rules for post-scarcity markets, and the degree of control being claimed by some companies would inevitable snowball to a scary degree, and the alternatives being offered by the darknet communities would lead to anarchy. Trying to pretend that societal pressure will force publishers to change when their current solution-of-preference is to attempt to distort the market such that their rights are enforced by big brother is simply naive. If they cannot compete by adopting a market-acceptable business model, then they need to fail. This is, afaik, the best possible compromise available in the current situation. Last edited by DawnFalcon; 03-02-2010 at 08:00 PM.

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03-02-2010, 06:58 PM	#63
fugazied Wizard Posts: 1,305 Karma: 1958 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: iPod Touch	The different is, the piracy will be done by people who wanted to buy the book but couldn't. That is an important distinction, because a lot of piracy is done by people who had no intention of paying for the book and only picked it up because they found it free on the Internet (many of them don't even read the pirated e-book).

03-02-2010, 07:09 PM	#64
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	I do agree that the e-book should be out the same day as hardcover--just price it a bit higher than e-books that have a paperback version in print, and drop to that price level when the paper back comes out. And I agree with fugazied that doing so will help thwart piracy among those who would have bought it if it was out, which is key. I do think it's a disgusting sense of entitlement that some people think it's ok to pirate a book just because the e-book isn't released for a couple of months after the hard cover. Having to wait a couple of months is not justification for piracy. There are millions of books out there, find something else to read while you're waiting, rather than doing the immoral act of pirating the e-book and trying to justify it through some sense of entitlement that you have a right to have an e-book the same day the hardback comes out. The e-book SHOULD be out the same day, but the fact that sometimes it isn't doesn't excuse piracy. No one is entitled to be able to buy an e-book the same day as the hardback.

03-02-2010, 07:49 PM	#66
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	I get all that DF. But piracy isn't the answer. The answer is boycotts, writing letters to publishers in mass etc. All you do by pirating stuff is keeping the vicious cycle going. Consumers get annoyed, have senses of entitlement etc. They pirate more stuff. Publishers see piracy going up, get more paranoid and become even less likely to drop DRM etc. Do the moral thing and don't pirate, but boycott that publisher. Get others to do the same. Write them everytime you want to buy an e-book that's not available or is priced higher than the cheapest print version etc. Don't just pirate it and use some lame justifications about evil publishers etc. To wrongs do not make a right.

03-02-2010, 08:34 PM	#68
Billjr13 Addict Posts: 357 Karma: 550002 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Colorado Device: Sony PRS 700 & 650	The only business model which has succeeded in taking traffic from the darknet is based on low price, no DRM and high availability. This is not coincidence. Yeah Entitlement. Give me what I want, make it free or really cheap, make it easy to copy, or I will take it anyway without paying and give it to anybody who asks for it so they wont pay for it too. I'm Entitled to take whats not mine because I want it and you cant stop me. Sounds like a bunch of petulant children justifying there bad behavior. "I want it I am going to take it and you cant stop me." "If it is on the internet it belongs to everyone, so I dont have to pay for it;" is a poor attitude and if you were the creative one and people were taking your work you wouldn't like it.

03-02-2010, 09:18 PM	#69
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	I work in a creative industry. I've seen my work on the darknets. It's not a matter of like or dislike, it's a matter of practicality. The important thing is maximum return. And the moment you jack up the price, add DRM or reduce availability (let alone all these at once), sales fall. (This is not saying "do nothing", it's "be very careful what you do", and carrots work far better than sticks!) I'll stick with what works, while you do your moralist lecture. The only problem is you're pushing more people towards the darknet because they don't like being lectured at. The important thing is to allow the market to sort this out: inefficient processes like DRM have to be allowed to fail in the market! You see "petulant children", I see an emerging EU-wide political party with excellent organisation capacity growing at a rapid rate, which already has a foothold at both EU and National levels, and will lead a backlash against shielding IP-creating companies from the full range of market conditions present at this time.

03-03-2010, 03:47 AM	#70
Guns4Hire Reading...Since 1970 Posts: 610 Karma: 7819 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nova Air C, Nova Pro, LifebookMars, BoyueT62+ Glowlight, NST, PB360	http://mayareynoldswriter.blogspot.c...vs-p-book.html Author's take on the New York Times article which is where Gizmodo got some of their information from.

03-03-2010, 04:10 AM	#71
carbonize Connoisseur Posts: 60 Karma: 32262 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bristol, UK Device: Sony PRS-600	Is there not already a website where unsigned authors can upload their works and charge for them if they wanted to? I mean look at some of the musicians/singers who got a contract due to getting a following on MySpace or similar. Maybe if unsigned authors did start to sell their own works then the publishers might take note or maybe sign a few of them. I suppose you could use Amazon but I was thinking more a dedicated ebook site with reviews.

03-03-2010, 07:59 AM	#73
carbonize Connoisseur Posts: 60 Karma: 32262 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bristol, UK Device: Sony PRS-600	Yes but at Amazon their work would just get lost amongst the millions of other items Amazon sells. I'm talking more a site dedicated to selling, or even giving away, ebooks direct from the authors. Then you can have things like top ten downloaded books, top rated and so on. Of course the site would either have to take a cut or charge a fee of some description but I think a site like that could help unsigned authors.

03-03-2010, 08:35 AM	#75
DawnFalcon Banned Posts: 2,094 Karma: 2682 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: N/A	Except of course you don't need to, given most people have a PC! Not to mention a smartphone or a PDA...

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