What are your views on illegal copying?

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Then you'd of used the correct term, Unauthorised Copying.

That does sound better, because it avoids the question of legality - some of the things that I asked about are legal, at least in some places/situations.

Also, bluntly, anyone admitting such on a forum is being very very silly.

You think people will be targeted? It seems unlikely to me, but I'd agree that it might be wiser not to.

[dmaul1114]

It all depends on what you do with the copy.

If you own a book, and want to make a copy, or strip DRM (if it's an e-book), to put a paper copy in the office or put the e-book on different reading machines you own, I think that should be legal.

If you're borrowing a book and making a photo copy rather than buying that's wrong. If you're stripping DRM from a friends e-book to get it on your device, that's wrong.

If you copy/scan a book and distribute the scans to others, it's wrong. If you strip DRM and put the book on a torrent site, or give it to friends etc., that's wrong.

Basically anything that involves you getting a copy of a book that's for sale (not public domain in your country) or giving away copies (other than the main copy, which means you no longer have a copy) is wrong IMO.

Acquiring or distributing a non-public domain e-book without paying for it is no different that acquiring or distributing a copy of a physical book you didn't pay for.

If you want to make a copy of a book you bought for personal use, or strip DRM to get it on other devices you own, that's fine. Just don't get copies of stuff you own, or make copies for friends--but you should be able to give them your only copy when your done with it IMO--which is a flaw of DRM.

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

No, it is copyright infringement.

For example, if someone used a picture of a donkey which Disney owns the copyright to as their avatar, that's copyright infringement - it doesn't make them a thief.

Does it?

Look, if I use a donkey picture as my avatar, I *could* have created it in Photoshop - Lord knows I get enough practice at this stuff! So that does qualify as copyright infringement - maybe.

However, if I don't own a dead-tree copy of a novel and the novel is available for sale as an ebook and I choose instead to download it from the dark-net sites, or scan it in from a library book, it's much more similar to me going into a bookstore or supermarket and shoplifting a paperback version. Would you call that 'copyright infringement'? No, you'd call that theft. Misdemeanor theft to be sure, but still, theft.

Derek

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

No, it is copyright infringement.

For example, if someone used a picture of a donkey which Disney owns the copyright to as their avatar, that's copyright infringement - it doesn't make them a thief.

Does it?

That's a different situation.

Some one buys a book to own it and read it. Some downloads an illegal copy of a book to own it and read it. A thief steals a copy of the physical book to own it and read it.

So getting an illegal copy is pretty much theft to me. Something like say, using an image of a bookcover as an avatar is copyright infringement. It's using a companies copyrighted material without permission. But it didn't involve acquiring their full content and consuming it without paying for it.

The company didn't lose a potential sale from someone using the book cover as an avatar, and the person didn't get the experience of reading the book without paying for it. A person downloads the book from a torrent site and reads it, the company lost a potential sale and the person got to enjoy the experience of reading it without paying for it.

I don't get why people think that stealing a book, movie, album etc. electronically is really any different than stealing a physical book, DVD or CD. It's still a lost sale for the company, and you still got to experience the content without paying for it.

Getting an illegal digital copy should be a crime and punished similarly to stealing the physical copy. Distributing files illegally should be treated similarly to one that makes physical bootlegs for sale--more leniently probably since they are giving them away rather than selling them.

[Kevin2960]

So I have tickets or soccers World Cup,thier sent electronically,so i make a few backups, which i use for several of the games, I give some to mates, I sell a few, then upload and share them on here, But I don't FEEL its wrong, so it's not theft right ?
No one minds, so its OK!

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Over

We don't own ebooks. We buy a license to read them. We borrow ebooks.

I've not paid for any eBooks that have included any language to the effect that it is a license I've purchased and not the book itself. And, as of yet, no one has asked me to give one back yet either.

You can compare the purchase of an ebook to a license because of the similarities in the rights you have but that is an affect of the DRM that you choose to accept when you agree to purchase the book at the specified price.

On the other hand I've got several eBooks that have no DRM that specifically says I can share them and pass out copies.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by delphidb96

However, if I don't own a dead-tree copy of a novel and the novel is available for sale as an ebook and I choose instead to download it from the dark-net sites, or scan it in from a library book, it's much more similar to me going into a bookstore or supermarket and shoplifting a paperback version. Would you call that 'copyright infringement'? No, you'd call that theft. Misdemeanor theft to be sure, but still, theft.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't go to the darknets for a book that was on sale as an ebook for which I didn't own a dead tree copy ...

... but this is still not theft. It's making an unauthorised copy. In my view, it's wrong in this case, because the book has been made available and the author has not yet been paid. But it still isn't theft - that's simply the wrong word for what is going on.

[libri-libre]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

I think that libraries are great, and have written to mine to try to get them to stock ebooks.

There is a difference between owning a book and borrowing it, which I think it is reasonable to carry through to the digital world. If it's OK to copy a book when you borrow it, authors will lose more profitable sales to library loan + copy.

So if my library has eBooks for loan but they are only in ePub format (and with DRM) that my Kindle cannot read, is it OK for me to strip the DRM, convert the book to Kindle-readable, read it on my Kindle and then delete it when I'm done?

Kinda just as I'd do if I had a Nook or Sony reader (albeit more work).

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by GhostHawk

This is where it starts getting really interesting.

Such as a book being in public domain in Canada, but not in the US.
Wrong? Right? Moral? Immoral?

Who knows? Certainly not me. All I was trying to do in my initial post was say that in most cases it is easy to decide if some thing is illegal or not. Once we start getting into whether something is right or wrong we will get a gazillion different opinions based and not find a lot of common ground. But, if you want to discuss it further, we should meet for beer somewhere - it will take a while though

I happen to agree with the following and think that this the "right" way to do it:
If you purchase a book (physical or otherwise) you should be able to, at your own expense, make a back up copy of it for your own use that you cannot distribute.
You should be able to loan the original out to whoever you want to.
You should be able to give away or sell the original also with the understanding that you remove any copies of it you might have.
I am against DRM as I think it limits what you, the owner of the item, can do with it.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

So I have tickets or soccers World Cup,thier sent electronically,so i make a few backups, which i use for several of the games, I give some to mates, I sell a few, then upload and share them on here, But I don't FEEL its wrong, so it's not theft right ?
No one minds, so its OK!

This isn't about what I feel is wrong. What you describe is gaining entrance to an event through some kind of fraud. Unauthorised copying of an ebook is (at least sometimes) copyright infringement. You could not be prosecuted for theft.

Let's be clear - it's not legally theft.
It might strike you as being the same as theft, so you call it that - but I don't think that it is the same, because it doesn't take anything away in the way that theft does.

I also never said that I didn't feel unauthorised copying was wrong. As it happens, I think that it depends on the circumstances. If I have bought the book new, and then I copy an electronic version of a friend to read it, I don't feel that is morally wrong. If a book is available for purchase, and I've not already purchased it, and I copy it - I think that is wrong.

The point of this poll was to find out what people thought - not to seek the "right answer".

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by libri-libre

So if my library has eBooks for loan but they are only in ePub format (and with DRM) that my Kindle cannot read, is it OK for me to strip the DRM, convert the book to Kindle-readable, read it on my Kindle and then delete it when I'm done?

Kinda just as I'd do if I had a Nook or Sony reader (albeit more work).

As others have pointed out, whether or not it is "OK" to do it is open to some small amount of debate, it is however "illegal" to do that. At least in most places.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by libri-libre

So if my library has eBooks for loan but they are only in ePub format (and with DRM) that my Kindle cannot read, is it OK for me to strip the DRM, convert the book to Kindle-readable, read it on my Kindle and then delete it when I'm done?

Kinda just as I'd do if I had a Nook or Sony reader (albeit more work).

It seems OK to me, in a moral sense, to format shift it in order to read it. What I was saying was that it isn't right to keep a copy of a library book, in my view.

[Kevin2960]

Ben, define Darknet in your orignal post, internet, subversive, underground, wrong, illegal,

admit it or not, thats what you meant !

You meant Stolen !!!!

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

Let's be clear - it's not legally theft.
It might strike you as being the same as theft, so you call it that - but I don't think that it is the same, because it doesn't take anything away in the way that theft does.

You are correct. But to me that just says laws need updating to deal with issues of theft of digital content.

If a person gets a copy of an e-book that is for sale that they didn't pay for, it should be considered theft and treated as a minor misdemeanor theft just like stealing a $5-10 physical book IMO.

The DRM issues just need ironed out and fair use clearly defined. Someone should be able to loan e-books to people for a limited amount of time. People should be able to sell or give away their ebooks--as long as they don't keep a copy themselves. People should be able to put the ebooks they bought on different reading devices they own.

Just a matter of the technology and DRM improving to allow that. Have processes that move an e-book license from one person to another in a way that deletes the license from the giver/sellers machine etc.

But getting copies of stuff you didn't pay for that's for sale is wrong, and the laws need to change to define those as theft as it's taking sales away from publishers, authors and e-book stores.

[Ben Thornton]

Originally Posted by Kevin2960

Ben, define Darknet in your orignal post, internet, subversive, underground, wrong, illegal,

admit it or not, thats what you meant !

You meant Stolen !!!!

Nope.

Illegal - often. Wrong - sometimes. Stolen - never.

Because making a copy isn't stealing.
You might say that it seems like stealing to you - but it is not, legally, stealing, and it doesn't seem like stealing to me. Even when it's wrong (i.e. wrong in my view), it's still not stealng.

Let's take a practical example.

I have a paper book.
If I scan that, use OCR, get an electronic copy for my own use - stealing?
What if a friend did that and I use their e-copy - stealing?
What if someone on-line has done that, and I use their e-copy - stealing?
In all cases, the author has been paid when I bought my paper copy.