Better without pages

[=X=]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That is actually one benefit of the increasing "standarisation" of reading devices on Adobe Digital Editions (ADE). ADE does have consistent page numbering which is independent of font size and device, so if you refer to page 50 of a particular ePub book, everyone using ADE-based software to read that book will have the same page 50.

Good point, that's true.

Although I would like to see a convention or standard that transcended a book format.

=X=

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by =X=

Good point, that's true.

Although I would like to see a convention or standard that transcended a book format.

=X=

But that's not even true of pbooks nor even different editions of the same book.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That is actually one benefit of the increasing "standarisation" of reading devices on Adobe Digital Editions (ADE). ADE does have consistent page numbering which is independent of font size and device, so if you refer to page 50 of a particular ePub book, everyone using ADE-based software to read that book will have the same page 50.

Only I wouldn't call that "page", but something else, like "fragment", "position", "marker"...

Even if you read a document by scrolling, take your typical webpage in a browser, you have a document with a given width (usually it fits in your window) and a large height. In the window you see only a portion of the total height of the document, and you can move this window (or the document) up and down with a scroll bar. Usually, the scroll bar represents the total 100% length of the document and the scroll button is positioned at the corresponding relative position of the window in the document, and sized also in proportion to the size of the window with respect to the total document length (if the window can show half the document, the button takes half the total scroll bar height).

It would only be beneficial if it were possible to have some numbers measuring this. Call the size of the scroll button "1" (that is, one page). Measure the total length of the scroll bar in button units, that's the total "pages" of the document. Measure the position of the button in the bar in button units as well, that's the current "page". Round it all to integer numbers, and you're done. Sure, these page numbers are not useful for referencing, only for "internal" use by the user while reading a book.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Only I wouldn't call that "page", but something else, like "fragment", "position", "marker"...
... Sure, these page numbers are not useful for referencing, only for "internal" use by the user while reading a book.

That's how the current Sony format - BBeB works. The book length and current page number change when you change the font size/reformat....

[=X=]

Originally Posted by kennyc

But that's not even true of pbooks nor even different editions of the same book.

Right why be shacked of an obsolete technology. There is no need to force eBooks to act like pBooks; the experience should be better in every way. And if technology allows for a better solution then we should consider it.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by =X=

Right why be shacked of an obsolete technology. There is no need to force eBooks to act like pBooks; the experience should be better in every way. And if technology allows for a better solution then we should consider it.

I'm curious exactly how people plan to improve on the book paradigm given the technology can't even adequately simulate books.

[HarryT]

You mean like not needing to carry around an inconveniently large building in order to have thousands of books at your disposal, for example? You're right - it really SHOULD make us all do that, shouldn't it?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Juliette

Like in the Cybook?

No, it does not show progress. You have to know how long the text is to get the progress. It measure some kind of relative progress but the resolution is very low so you cannot see if you have read 20 pages or 50 pages for example.

The main non academic use of page numbers is to be able to see how long (how much time will it take to read) a book is and to see how much you have read in one sitting. I am waiting for ePub on my Cybook to get this functionality since I noticed after buying the Cybook that I need this information to really enjoy reading a book.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

I'm curious exactly how people plan to improve on the book paradigm given the technology can't even adequately simulate books.

Therein lies the problem, who said anything about "simulate". To simulate is a backward notion that puts more value on books than the content.

When older technology is obsoleted it's better to shift the paradigm than try to "simulate" the old. Would you insist you car gallop as you increase in speed, house lights flicker and turn off with a breeze.


I do agree with you on the sense that the eBook technology is not mature enough to replace paper books but that will not be the case in 5-10yrs from now.

=X=

[Hellmark]

Personally, I prefer pages, since it gives me a better idea of how far I have to go. Yeah, not as easy when telling someone to look at a specific spot, but, how do you know how big each section is? I've read on a reader that didn't use the traditional screen==page setup, and so I'd hit the next page button, and it still is displaying that it is on the same page (also note, I cram as much text on page as possible, so was a bit more confusing). By the time I got the jist of how many screens made up the "page", I was done with the book.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Even if you read a document by scrolling, take your typical webpage in a browser, you have a document with a given width (usually it fits in your window) and a large height. In the window you see only a portion of the total height of the document, and you can move this window (or the document) up and down with a scroll bar. Usually, the scroll bar represents the total 100% length of the document and the scroll button is positioned at the corresponding relative position of the window in the document, and sized also in proportion to the size of the window with respect to the total document length (if the window can show half the document, the button takes half the total scroll bar height).

The real problem with these is academic citations. I had to use an online article recently for a publication, and needed several direct quotes from it and it was a real pain as APA citations require citing the paragraph number for quotes from an online document.

So I had to print it out and go through and number all the paragraphs. So any kind of non-paginated format is going to cause citation issues without some kind of universal location indicator standards (like the Kindles) etc. that can be cited in scholarly works.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

The real problem with these is academic citations. I had to use an online article recently for a publication, and needed several direct quotes from it and it was a real pain as APA citations require citing the paragraph number for quotes from an online document.

Page numbers for citations are pretty much useless as soon as several editions of a work exist, anyway.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Page numbers for citations are pretty much useless as soon as several editions of a work exist, anyway.

... are citations not always supposed to cite a specific edition?

- Ahi

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by ahi

... are citations not always supposed to cite a specific edition?

- Ahi

Yep, you cite a specific version in the bibliography so that's a non-issue.

I know some don't care, but for us academics citations are a big issue and has to be resolved/standardized (along with a lot of other improvements) for us to switch to e-versions of academic books, journal articles etc.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yep, you cite a specific version in the bibliography so that's a non-issue.

Sure, but the page information becomes useless if the reader does not have the exact same edition. Providing other location information like chapter/section/paragraph numbers should be safer, and work even for translations. And with ebooks that can be text-searched, are precise locations really needed?

But the reference markers for citations, even if they are the page numbers from a particular printed version, need not coincide with the virtual "page" numbers that the user is actually seeing while reading the book.