Vegetarian?

[griffonwing]

Zelda

When it comes to taste of meat, many meats taste different. By far the most delicious meat that I have ever had is squirrel. OMG my gramma made some squirrel stew and it was delicious!

As for the "factory farming practices" and such, what you do is find a small farm that raises free-range animals. You don't need to support huge meat-mills, but you CAN support the smaller family farms that are just as health-conscious as you are.

Another thing about taste, when you have some chicken or squirrel or duck (yum, another good one), try some bites with a few of your favourite salad dressings. Chicken with Parmesian Ranch dressing, Squirrel with Bleu Cheese. A taste of your favourite salad dressing might help ease you into being accustomed to the taste of the meat.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Hmmm, sorry, I can't accept that being vegetarian is a more moral choice than not.

I think it's exactly that kind of statement that can give vegetarians a bad name. It's every individual's right to choose their own life-style, but to claim the moral high ground because of your choice (and I mean that generically, not 'you', laz) is just unacceptable.

When my wife was at University, I often used to visit her. At the time she lived with two vegetarians. These two girls would sit and watch me disapprovingly every time I made a bacon sandwich, pointedly fanning the air, tutting, that kind of thing, drove me mad.

In short, everybody has the right to choose their own life-style. They do not have a right to try to impose that on others, not do they have a right to claim that their life-style is intrinsically more 'moral'.

NB. Both the girls mentioned above took a summer job in a meat-packing factory rather than in a school's summer camp (they were training to be Primary School teachers) because it paid more money" So much for principles!

I get what you mean, and I agree that my post could be interpreted that way.

But I think you're putting to much value into "the moral stance". We're all immoral imo in the sense that we don't give all our valuables to the poor and act like Jesus.

But hey, part of being human is also to be egotistical. What I'm trying to say is simply: If everyone was a vegetarian there would be less suffering in the world. And I think that is quite indisputable. However, if I didn't buy a bottle of Barolo and instead gave the money to the poor there would also be less suffering in the world.

So I'm not trying to pass judgement in any way. It's not that vegetarians are better persons or something, since there is egotistical reasons behind them being vegetarians. It would just be better for the world as a whole if we all were vegetarians.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

I
But hey, part of being human is also to be egotistical. What I'm trying to say is simply: If everyone was a vegetarian there would be less suffering in the world. And I think that is quite indisputable.

It would just be better for the world as a whole if we all were vegetarians.

Ahem. I believe Hitler was an ardent vegetarian. He also loved animals, and opposed any torture of them.

I'm just sayin'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H..._vegetarianism

[Elsi]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Ahem. I believe Hitler was an ardent vegetarian. He also loved animals, and opposed any torture of them.

Godwin's Law.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Zelda

When it comes to taste of meat, many meats taste different. By far the most delicious meat that I have ever had is squirrel. OMG my gramma made some squirrel stew and it was delicious!

As for the "factory farming practices" and such, what you do is find a small farm that raises free-range animals. You don't need to support huge meat-mills, but you CAN support the smaller family farms that are just as health-conscious as you are.

Another thing about taste, when you have some chicken or squirrel or duck (yum, another good one), try some bites with a few of your favourite salad dressings. Chicken with Parmesian Ranch dressing, Squirrel with Bleu Cheese. A taste of your favourite salad dressing might help ease you into being accustomed to the taste of the meat.

LOL, Squirrel. Where do you get that kind of thing? I'd like to try eating squirrel one day.

As for the factory farming practices: It's not so easy to avoid if you live in the city and don't own a car. Furthermore in Denmark a large part of the population lives alone (students often move to live alone when they are twenty or so), and small farm sales tend to be "buy half a pork" or something like that. I could never eat that much pork before it was tainted.

Generally I think one of the main problems is that everything in this modern society seems to load the full responsibility on the end consumer: It's up to us as end consumer to recycle, it's up to us to save electricity, it's up to us not to use chemicals in our garden. The truth is that it's the industry that is the big culprit spending needless energy, using vast amounts of chemicals. It's not like the chemicals from private households are insignificant. But if you really want to do something about the problem you need to set standards for the big corporations and such.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Ahem. I believe Hitler was an ardent vegetarian. He also loved animals, and opposed any torture of them.

I'm just sayin'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_H..._vegetarianism

Yes yes so was Gandhi. Your point being?

Oh and btw your argument is logically flawed.

It's a false syllogism.

[mklynds]

I am most definitely not a vegetarian. I eat meat at least once a day. Not only that but I have been hunting since I was 8. While I grew up we ate mostly elk and moose meat that was provided by me and my father hunting. We would almost never eat beef at home. And my dad is the Hutterites #1 customer as far as chicken and turkey goes. I would never even consider becoming a vegetarian but know quite a few who have made the choice and that is fine. I don't mind eating with vegetarians as long as the respect my right to eat meat as much as I respect their right to not eat meat. I agree with Bilbo that everyone has the right to choose their own diet.

Bon Appetit, what ever it is you choose to eat, may it be fresh and delicious!!

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Yes yes so was Gandhi. Your point being?

Oh and btw your argument is logically flawed.

It's a false syllogism.

YOUR point was that if everyone was a vegetarian, the world would be a better place with less suffering.

Mine is that it would make no difference. People are people and we'll always have monsters who masquerades as human regardless of what they eat.

If people cared as much about other people as they did animals suffering, there would be much less suffering.

THATS a fact.

[fugazied]

I'm a vegetarian of.. 17 years now. I find it hard avoiding eggs so I eat those every now and then (inside a cake or cookie). Also I enjoy coffee with milk in it, moreso than one with soy milk.

I love the vegetarian lifestyle, after so many years as a vegetarian meat does really get repulsive and the concept of a diet high in animal flesh seems a bit strange.

I'm in no way militant about my vegetarianism, meat eaters can do what they want, but if they ask me why I am a vegetarian I'll rattle off a number of reasons dealing with human physiology, spirituality, the environment, animal rights, world hunger and more.

[mklynds]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

If people cared as much about other people as they did animals suffering, there would be much less suffering.

THATS a fact.

Here Here!!!

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

YOUR point was that if everyone was a vegetarian, the world would be a better place with less suffering.

Mine is that it would make no difference. People are people and we'll always have monsters who masquerades as human regardless of what they eat.

If people cared as much about other people as they did animals suffering, there would be much less suffering.

THATS a fact.

But if we imagine that the amount of monsters are equal regardless of their eating habit, then there would still be less suffering if everyone was a vegetarian. It would mean far less co2, it would feed many more than meat production can possibly feed and it would kill and exploit far less animals.

Thus the total amount of suffering is reduced... even though the amount of madness and monsters and horrible deeds stay the same in every other regard.

Of course people are more important than animals. I haven't said otherwise. But that is not what we are discussing, unless you are mother theresa.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Hmmm, sorry, I can't accept that being vegetarian is a more moral choice than not.

I think it's exactly that kind of statement that can give vegetarians a bad name. It's every individual's right to choose their own life-style, but to claim the moral high ground because of your choice (and I mean that generically, not 'you', laz) is just unacceptable.

When my wife was at University, I often used to visit her. At the time she lived with two vegetarians. These two girls would sit and watch me disapprovingly every time I made a bacon sandwich, pointedly fanning the air, tutting, that kind of thing, drove me mad.

In short, everybody has the right to choose their own life-style. They do not have a right to try to impose that on others, not do they have a right to claim that their life-style is intrinsically more 'moral'.

actually i agree with you that everyone has the right to choose for themselves. that is why i said in my very first post in this thread that i don't proselytise. but i do get a bit annoyed when non-vegetarians seem to make a personal crusade to convert *me*. it's my own choice, everyone should respect that, the same way that i respect their choice and don't try to force my view on anyone.

Originally Posted by Laz116

However regarding to taste. It's quite rare that we humans like something (that is not sugary) on the first go. Normally "experts" talk about how small children needs to taste something up to ten times before they get used to it. And it should be even worse for adults. So when you don't like meat, it's probably mostly because you're not used to the taste.

yes, i'm sure you're right. but i don't particularly *want* to learn to like that taste, so i won't insist. the only reason i tasted meat to begin with is only so that i can reply "yes, i do" when other people tell me that i don't know what i am missing (and if i only knew, i would change my mind)...

I have the same problem about dioxins and the likes as you have. As I don't eat a lot of meat, I would like to only eat meat from ecological (organic (crappy word since all meat is organic)) farming. But it's not easy: The supermarkets may have 15 different types of chicken, but you have to be lucky if just one of them is "organic". The diversity is just more of the same it seems.

yes, i think if you are going to eat meat, the best solution at least is to pay attention to where it comes from. that is the same reason why i make a point to buy only eggs from chickens living outside and eating grains (there are codes stamped on them which tell what kind of farm they are from, so you can verify), even though they are more expensive.

Needless to say there are moral questions, along with the personal health concerns, involved buying a 2£ chicken which has had a life span of 40 days opposed to the typical 90 days life span of an organic chicken. In Denmark, where I am from, a farmer was given about 23 pence for a chicken in 1950. Today they are given about 20 pence. No wonder we eat crap. And there are only two to blame: 1) Us, the consumers, who really don't care, as long as it is cheap, and 2) the government who should have regulated the food industry much more to protect animals as well as the consumers (because the food industry has a lack of transparency, it's difficult for the end consumer to make qualified choices).

Even if you only buy food labeled "organic", you cannot be sure that you are getting a reasonable product, since there are different rules for the use of such a label in different countries.

Phew /rant off.

Originally Posted by Laz116

Generally I think one of the main problems is that everything in this modern society seems to load the full responsibility on the end consumer: It's up to us as end consumer to recycle, it's up to us to save electricity, it's up to us not to use chemicals in our garden. The truth is that it's the industry that is the big culprit spending needless energy, using vast amounts of chemicals. It's not like the chemicals from private households are insignificant. But if you really want to do something about the problem you need to set standards for the big corporations and such.

yes, i completely agree with you, i get really angry as well sometimes about the way industry is set up. and i'm a bit afraid that the rules will only get more lax, not more strict, as they should...

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Zelda

When it comes to taste of meat, many meats taste different. By far the most delicious meat that I have ever had is squirrel. OMG my gramma made some squirrel stew and it was delicious!

As for the "factory farming practices" and such, what you do is find a small farm that raises free-range animals. You don't need to support huge meat-mills, but you CAN support the smaller family farms that are just as health-conscious as you are.

Another thing about taste, when you have some chicken or squirrel or duck (yum, another good one), try some bites with a few of your favourite salad dressings. Chicken with Parmesian Ranch dressing, Squirrel with Bleu Cheese. A taste of your favourite salad dressing might help ease you into being accustomed to the taste of the meat.

all that might be interesting to me if i had any interest in changing my lifestyle, but i don't. why do you think i would ?

[Laz116]

BTW DesertGrandMa:

Living as a vegetarian is cheaper, so you would have more money to spend on saving people.

And please try to remember that I'm not a vegetarian myself. I just have a difficult time seeing anything negative about being a vegetarian besides the fact that I like meat. In almost any other regard, vegetarianism is a nobrainer. Sadly taste accounts for quite a bit.

[lilac_jive]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Using Photoshop, or GIMP, or any other photo-editing software, create a fake logo and package.

ToFU ChAN's Tofu Bacon Strips! Tastes so much like bacon, you'll OINK!

Buy some REAL bacon and throw out the package, or paste the new package over the original. Start cooking the bacon. When she comes into the kitchen, ask her if she'd like some, and show her the package. Tell her you saw them in (some health/natural foods store far away). If she really loves bacon, she'll be surprised at how much like real bacon it tastes.

Oh that's cruel

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

all that might be interesting to me if i had any interest in changing my lifestyle, but i don't. why do you think i would ?

Nah, You mentioned something about the taste, and I thought I'd throw my two pence in about different tastes.

Actually, I am quite the opposite of a vegetarian. I love me some corn, potatoes, occassionally some green beans, peas, and most beans (brown, baked, kidney, red, etc..), peppers. But that's about it.

I do not like lettuce, tomato, onion, celery, broccoli, cauliflower, etc.. It's not so much the taste, as it is the texture. I know for a fact that its psychosomatic. It doesn't change anything. Everytime I eat lettuce or onion, raw or cooked, with or without cheese or dressing, I gag. *shrug*

I don't like cucumber, but I love pickles.
I don't like tomatoes, but I love ketchup.

I get 95% of my vegetable intake from SALSA!