eInk readers dying before they spread?

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by rgeorg

Hi griffinwing,
I really enjoy your posts on the Astak thread! "Used to be a problem" is debatable since everyone with an eink reader currently has this problem (should I say "feature?").

The Epson controller does sound promising as far as reducing flash goes (the "non-problem" that the manufacturers are scrambling to cure!) - but I don't think the devices are available yet? Has Robertb posted a video of the new page-turn rate? I think it's only a claim for now. At this point in time it's "6 of one and half-dozen of another" regarding eyestrain LCD vs flashing of eink - a draw(IMHO). How long one reads at a sitting is also relevant - I read <1hour in general. For lucky others who have hours-and-hours to read at a sitting, eink may make more sense.

Other issues being more-or-less even as you point out, and we are left with expensive, breakable and single-purpose. I'm referring to the $200-$500 offerings, although prices seem to be dropping fast. I'm just pointing out that:

1. It's not necessarily true (and definitely not proven) that "many more" people use/prefer - and are willing to pay the premium for - eink over LCD.

2. The perceived advantages of eink over LCD are not clear (at least not to me), and certainly not trouble/issue-free. I grant you that this is a debatable issue - OK?

3. Ebook readers in general are relatively expensive when compared to other PMP devices (such as mp3 players). This must change.

This is an interesting discussion that is probably a waste of time as new models and technology are expected to be available in the coming 6-12 months which will totally change the discussion parameters.

Dear rgeorg and Griffonwing:

Today's post by Griffonwing is really a gem. Well written and very informative.

The situation that Griffonwing was referring to was that at the start of E-Ink PVI went to numerous Controller Companies and tried to get them to build a controller for eBook Readers. As there was no installed base, they got no takers. PVI built an Apollo Controller to do the job. It did work but was slow in turning pages and loading eBooks.

Epson finally stepped forward about 9 months ago and offered a new controller specifically made for eBook Readers. No, I have NOT had a chance yet to do a video of the result. This is because we only have two PROTOTYPES of the Astak EZ Reader Pocket PRO and both have Chinese names and Chinese characters. When I do a video I at least want it to say Astak on it so people can relate to it.

ALL I can do is tell you what I am seeing... the Epson has turned the Pocket PRO into a speed demon on page turns. I now get 11.5 (almost twelve) page turns in ten seconds. I just counted about 6.5 page turns in ten seconds on the EZ Reader (which was not exactly slow anyway). So, there are some statistics until I can get a video up. To me this is good. I never minded the lag time before... but now I have no lag time and that is some tangible improvement.

What I can enter my two cents upon is eyestrain. I used to read paperback books on airplanes before I even knew what an eBook Reader was. Then I read word documents and emails on my Blackberry with a backlight. E-Ink is far easier on the eyes. My eyes before could get me maybe 30 minutes before I would switch to music listening. With my E-Ink EZ Reader I can go 2-3 hours before I get bored and grab some shut-eye. I noticed that my eyes do not water as they always did before.

E-Ink panels in 6 inch cost the manufacturer about $70. LCD panels cost the manufacturer about $20. So, there is no denying that LCD is going to be about $60-$65 less on the market. However, IF you can get the faster page turns, far longer battery charge life, Text-To-Speech, Adobe Digital Editions with reflow, AND it comes in colors AND it costs $199 or so versus $169 for the LCD without those features... THAT is where the LCD argument becomes less viable. I maybe buy 300 eBooks in three years... and if it costs me a 10 cents per book to get more features and be comfortable while I read... I think the Pocket PRO stands out as a very clear choice.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

The screens on most PMPs are just too small to read comfortably on. I have two PDAs, and the 3.5" screen on the iPaq is the smallest screen I can comfortably read on - I've tried using the screen on my phone, but it's just too small for any length of time.

I was very happy with the 320-pixel screen on my Clié. I gave up trying to work with it because of battery life issues, not screen preferences. There were times when I felt it was a little snug... but I'd be ecstatic with something iPhone sized as an ebook reader.

Except for the battery issues. I want at least a full day's reading on the device without having to worry about it.

I will say this: I've been reading on eink for a month - and had portable LCD for four years - and I find eink much better. I'm not opposed to LCD - but I don't consider current LCDs to be as good for reading as eink.

I think almost everyone prefers eink's individual pages, but that doesn't mean they prefer eink book readers. The flash on page turning may be enough of a nuisance that they'd rather read on an LCD screen, and anyone who likes small screens, or wants to read docs where color matters, is going to have solid reasons to prefer LCD (of some sort) screens.

[rgeorg]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

The price premium for eink devices over multi-function devices such as PMPs is not solely due to the display technology, display size also plays a part in it. The screens on most PMPs are just too small to read comfortably on. I have two PDAs, and the 3.5" screen on the iPaq is the smallest screen I can comfortably read on - I've tried using the screen on my phone, but it's just too small for any length of time.

Good point about the screen size. I often wish that my 5" reading device would grow to 7-8". But, perhaps then it wouldn't be as portable and fit so well in my small hands? I do prefer it to my 7" netbook, even around the house. I can't imagine reading on a 3.5" screen.

Robertb and Griffonwing,
Thanks for the interesting info. I enjoy learning the background and "behind the scenes info". Although I wouldn't purchase an additional 5" device, I am very interested in how the Epson controller improves the page-turn/flash of eink as that is basically my major concern - and I would be interested in an 8-10" model if it came out. It will be useful to see the eventual user reviews of the Pocket Pro as to how it compares to similar LCD offerings.

Although it seems to me that so much of this discussion is based on personal preferences. For example, I don't use DRMed books - so DRM is not something I'd pay for. However, many other people do and would have a very different and valid, opinion. Just as well that there are so many options!

[griffonwing]

I'd love to give the PocketPro a user review when it is released.

However, I have never owned an ereader of any type or brand before, eink or lcd, so I would have no comparisons to make.

So if you see the words "this is the best ereader I've ever owned" come from me, just realize that I could say the same there were I to review a Babylonian stone tablet.

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

I'd love to give the PocketPro a user review when it is released.

However, I have never owned an ereader of any type or brand before, eink or lcd, so I would have no comparisons to make.

So if you see the words "this is the best ereader I've ever owned" come from me, just realize that I could say the same there were I to review a Babylonian stone tablet.

Dear Griffonwing:

That was some review you wrote on the Babylonian "Stoner"! I liked that: "took two slaves eight days to carve up, non-existent page turns, comes in blood red only, great for reading in hanging gardens, weighs about 30 pounds, ships by boat only, reads TRUE, comes pre-chiseled with Amazon Analog Nubian"!!

How the hell can you be so knowledgable and not own a device??

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by Robertb

Dear Griffonwing:
...
How the hell can you be so knowledgable and not own a device??

Ooooh! Oooh! I know the answer to this one!





Because you guys won't send it to him yet!

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by Robertb

How the hell can you be so knowledgable and not own a device??

I just make sh** up.

Actually, I've spent the better part of the last few years looking at stuff online regarding eink, looking at the new devices coming out, seeing what they have to offer, comparing it to what came out months before, and not really seeing much of a difference except case design, and ebook formats. Everything else seemed to stagnate since eInk's inception, at least in regards to speed and functionality.

I went to Borders a couple years ago and actually held the 500 device, flipped through some pages, looked at the menu, and walked away dejected and unwilling to part with my 350 bucks. I vowed that I would not purchase a reader until a product came out that would be faster at page turns and could read more formats than the 500 could. How could I have forseen that it would take 3 years for the pages to turn faster?!

Since Epson stepped in with a newer controller, the whole 'flash' issue will be falling to the wayside, which addresses my first issue that I had with the Sony. The ability with the EZreader to read 14 formats is excellent, and addresses the second issue.

Granted, there have been more readers between the 500 and the PocketPro, but to me it was just the same technology with new wrappers. The technoloogy itself wasn't updated. Now it has, and now I am ready to partake.

On the plus side, I have spent the last few years building up a vast library of ebooks. Granted, most of them were from the darknet, as I could only read on my laptop via word doc, txts, rtf, and pdfs. I will slowly be converting them to other formats, or replacing them with purchased, properly formatted files as time permits.

It's a good thing the PocketPro supports up to 16GB, i have almost 12G of books already. Granted most of those are dupes, as I've converted many to several formats. But still. I'll gladly spend a paycheck to have properly formatted copies of my books.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by Abecedary

Ooooh! Oooh! I know the answer to this one!





Because you guys won't send it to him yet!

I've begged on my knees, but Barnacle Bob refused to unclench his tiny little fists and share the spoils.

Arrrgggghh!

[rgeorg]

Griffonwing,
Given all the free publicity and support you give him - and in such a pleasant, humorous manner - Robertb should dub you his "first officer", make you an honorary marketing adjunct and provide you with a "permanent loaner" EZ Reader unit....at least until the Pocket Pro comes out ;-)

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by rgeorg

Griffonwing,
Given all the free publicity and support you give him - and in such a pleasant, humorous manner - Robertb should dub you his "first officer", make you an honorary marketing adjunct and provide you with a "permanent loaner" EZ Reader unit....at least until the Pocket Pro comes out ;-)

Me? First officer? I'm the captain of this here ship! Not some bloody first officer. Walk the Plank with ye!!Actually

Hehe. I'm not sure really what kind of publicity that I've given. I don't think i even COULD do much publicity here. I live in a small town of about 20,000, so even if I had an EZReader and read it everywhere around town, there still wouldn't be a whole lot of people clamoring for the reader.

As far as support, yeah. He definitely has my support. Joining here to get our input, to take our thoughts and bring them before the CEO of the largest ereader company in the world? Hell yeah, he's got my support. I don't see Sony or Amason represented here to get a list of what we'd like to see, or our input in any way.

The ereader technology has finally evolved into the next stage, and that's what I'm excited about. Not the "it slices it dices, it makes you tea" type of evolve, but the core techonogy, the formats, the speed of the unit. The new Epson controller alone catapults the Pocket Pro to the next level of reader. This type of progression I will support. The extra fluff that has no real bearing on the core duty of the device, however, I detest. (wifi, 3g, keyboards). They fancy stuff that the Kindle can do, it can only do in certain areas, but deep down, it's still a slower machine, therefore, in my eyes, it's a Phase 1 machine.

The controller, the gray levels, THIS is what they should have been working on beofre adding fluff like wifi, 3g, whispernet, or keyboards.

What I would like to see for the PocketPro 2 would be a slide-out QWERTY keyboard in landscape. Similar to those new texting phones. So if you need to edit some work in pdf, epub, txt or whatever, you can. But when you're done, it slides back into the device and becomes small form factor again.

See what Jinke thinks about this, Robert. But remember, if you pass this iff as your idea, and you get a bonus, I want a cut!

[rgeorg]

Be grateful - I almost followed the sea-faring analogy and typed "First Mate"!

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by rgeorg

Be grateful - I almost followed the sea-faring analogy and typed "First Mate"!

Aye. I could see the "first mate" hiding behind the mask...

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by gerraldo

On the CyBook forum someone mentioned "Let the technology spread before it is terminated.". I've discussed something similar with a friend of mine just recently...

I can understand the fear of the technology/platform dying before it spreads. There are lots of things going on at the moment:
- new eInk devices appearing everywhere
- ePub format pushed for DRM standard in Europe
- Kindle looking for Europe
- nextGen readers being developed (WiFi, touchscreen, backlight, color)
- NetBooks, NetTablets, MIDs, etc. being announced/appearing
- and so on...

My POV:
- On the long-term eInk devices/eBook readers will die away and readers on other devices will take over (NetTablets, MIDs, smartphones etc.) - if there'll be ever those fuel cells available (with said 3-5 times battery life), this will even speed things up.
- If the DRM problem will not be solved soon (ONE de facto standard and/or no DRM at all - which I'd prefer) + reasonable pricing compared to pBooks (lower prices, budget eBooks, enhanced content, package deals, flat rates etc.), they'll have the same problems coming like the music biz.

You know the statistics? Most people read eBooks on other devices then eInk (PC and PDF being #1). If eInk devices don't get cheaper and more capable fast, they'll never be the most used device for eBook reading. Came to think of it, the cheapest eInk reader costs $ 200,-- and is of nothing more capable then reading eBooks (and this is even limited).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my CyBook and all, but look over at MP3 players (4GB models with OK features from well-known manufacturers) cost a mere $ 20-40,--. To be reasonable priced, eBook readers need to drop under $ 100,-- and with touch/color models appearing even more.

Named other devices (NetTablets, MIDs, PMPs etc) are speeding up with more features, better hardware, longer battery life, less weight, better form factors etc. (all compared to already existing devices, not eInk readers!). We already have an equally priced MID - the SmartQ 7 (look in the "other devices" forum) and despite it's downsides it delivers a LOT for the money.

And people (me included) love multi-purpose devices that can be enhanced later with new software (not FW updates) + devices with more open OS, so one can write software for it (which Pocketbook tries at the moment for their product!). Just look what happened to Smartphones and PDAs - who needs a PDA these days?! Same is true for PMPs (playing music, video and now enhanced with games, apps, WiFi, touchscreens and internet capability) - the NetTablet/MID/PMP (whatever it'll be named in the end) WILL be the future.

And if eReaders (eInk or not) don't get to grips with all that (including DRM and format wars), they'll be sooner or later history.

(just my 2 cents)

Amazon just simply dropped the ball in that they could have truly owned the US market had they sold the K1 at cost or even a small loss in order to put them in as many hands as possible as soon as possible. Now, given the attention span of the typical US edumacated person being analogous to that of a gnat on crack, ereading devices are no longer the flavor of the microsecond.

If eink reading devices had become ubiquitous with the release of the K1 then the game would be completely different today. I know it has been said here before...it is the Gillette formula proving itself out...give away the razor and charge for the blades.

By failing, well maybe not failing, but my not dominating the potential user-base without question with too good to pass up deals, Amazon might have thrown the whole market into such confusion that it could give other tech the chance to mature and leapfrog over eink as a reading display long term.

Interesting thought though and we'll see how this fall/winter play out...I sense the end of this year is going to be HUGE for the industry of ereading devices. Make or breaking a lot of companies. I just feel Amazon made a tactical error. Said that when the K1 was released, complained, bought one and have had nothing good to say about it since...a lot of that is related to the price.

I feel there is to be a return of the multi-purpose device with reading as but one function, internet access and communication being the other two. My Nokia N800 Tablet is almost that device already and it's more than a couple years old now. Plenty of time for the 3Qi display to mature and now be in position to give makers of such devices a fighting chance...