Apple... Potential Kindle Killer?

[All4Fun]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

That may be all true, but all that matters to us non-techies is having a product that works well and is simple and easy to use.

The techies like you can find all kinds of faults with products, but those of us who don't give a flying f*** about technology and it's in and outs and just want a product we can pick up and use are very well served by simple to use devices such as the Kindle or the iPhone.

And I believe an eventual tablet by Apple would do the same thing. Be very intuitive and idiot proof and a solid device for people who just want something to surf the net, watch movies, have a planner, read some books etc.

It may no meet the standards of power users and techies, but who cares? That's a small niche and Apple couldn't care less about them. The money is in the mainstream with the Joe Six Packs who just expect to buy stuff and do the basic advertised functions with ease.

I could care less if Apple or any other company is an innovator or just steals other ideas. I care that a company puts out a device that does what I need it to do and is easy as hell to use. Again, brand loyalty is for suckers, so I could careless if it's innovative or not as long as it works the way I think it should.

If I could give you more karma, I would.

[Gideon]

@kamm
Cliche or not, doesn't mean it isn't true. Some of us would rather be able to discuss these issues without it deteriorating into a "Apple sucks" "or Apple just makes overpriced junk" blah blah blah. That sort of vitriol isn't particularly useful. We might as well be arguing if the 360 or PS3 is a better device.

The claim of "fanboy" or "apple cult" or whatever is generally the first thing said in such conversations. Yes, it's stupid to have an irrational devotion to a company. I've not seen much of evidence in this thread of that - it's been a pretty back and forth conversation and the people saying "they could make such a product" in no way means "APPLE IS TEH AWESOME and EVERYONE ELSE SUCKS." There have been fans, and there have been advocates but it's not been fanboy central over here.

This conversation, and unfortunately, largely beginning with you - has taken on the tone of something out of a Fark thread.

Apple, whatever else one may think, has over the last few years managed to get their act together (before the intel chips I wouldn't go near one myself) and has beaten the hell (or is in the process of doing so) out of both the cellphone and the personal music market. And is it for everyone? No. But it'd be stupid to deny that they are popular and that the people that do use them generally enjoy them. That's not something we see a lot with tech - enjoyment of use. We tend to have to use technology despite itself - we value that advantage of the general pain in the ass we have to deal with to use it. Look at eReaders - if one really wants to get a lot of mileage out of one's device, you have to work for it! I have Windows installed for the SOLE reason of being able to use the MobiCreator program! I spend hours editing documents to work properly! And most of us here, being a fan community, do similar things!

I think that's one of the reasons we see Apple Fanboys - they get to enjoy using their technology instead of having to worry about it. And again - this is a generalization. But it's also a fair one - some Apple users may be schmucks, but they love their computers and ipods and crap because they just get the pleasure of it without the fight. Some people want the fight, some need it. But not all of us. I'm no Apple Fanboy... Apple does a lot wrong and has done a lot wrong. But I love how beautifully my Macbook and iMac play together. I love how easy it is to use a MacMini as a media center integrated with the rest of my home system. And I could replicate almost all of it for maybe... oh... 25% less on PC's. And I'd spend an ENORMOUS amount of time dealing with it, coaxing it into position. My time is worth enough to me to say "screw it! I'm getting a Mac!" And that's common!

You get the occasional bad experience, but when you have hardware problems and you're under warranty... you are taken care of well! My vid card went out on my iMac - it was out of warranty. It took them about a week longer to fix than it was supposed to because they broke something in it while fixing it. They upgraded my video card and fixed it all and didn't charge me a dime. I had some dust in my iPhone, the guy took a look at it and handed me a new one. Total time? 10 minutes. And because Apple has MobileMe (not the best service, but it has its moments) in just a few minutes my new iPhone had all the right contact info and bookmarks.

Compare that to what most people experience in those situations with Dell or their cell company or whatever. You don't think that means something to most people? They get their time and dignity back! Some of us might be able to do all of our own stuff, but most people can't - and shouldn't have to. I'd much rather have the non-profit directors I know that have me help with their tech be out saving the world than screwing with their computers! And so would they.

Ultimately, real discussion of a product killer is going to be a bit silly at this stage in the game (hypothetical product and all) but there is a lot of very good reasons to think that if Apple came out with such a device and it could read ebooks that it would seriously dent the unitasker ebook market. The zeitgeist about Apple is going in the direction I outlined above... there's TRUST there. It may be misplaced, but it is there.

It's not about them being innovators, no one cares about that sort of garbage except techies. It's about them turning whatever into something that people WANT to use, enjoy using, and ideally - just let them use the damn thing! I don't care who made tablets or ebooks or anything else - I care about who can provide me with a device that is pleasant to use, stable, and provides me with the content I want at a reasonable rate.

So.. as dmail said:

I could care less if Apple or any other company is an innovator or just steals other ideas. I care that a company puts out a device that does what I need it to do and is easy as hell to use. Again, brand loyalty is for suckers, so I could careless if it's innovative or not as long as it works the way I think it should.

Amen.

[ilovejedd]

Originally Posted by Gideon

Some of us would rather be able to discuss these issues without it deteriorating into a "Apple sucks" "or Apple just makes overpriced junk" blah blah blah. That sort of vitriol isn't particularly useful. We might as well be arguing if the 360 or PS3 is a better device.

Well said. I steered away from the discussion when it turned into a series of one-upmanship. I'm not fond of Macs or iPods, myself, and though I like my iPhone a lot (mostly due to Stanza), I'll be the first to say it's not perfect. However, the bashing on both sides is totally unnecessary.

Perhaps now, we can get back on topic?

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

That may be all true, but all that matters to us non-techies....

Actually, very little of what kamm says is true, at least on this topic (as well as on the topic of the quality of US universities, and a few others ) A (very) little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

But as to Apple being a potential Kindle killer, it may, if it does OLED.

I am starting to think, that OLED might be the "killer app" in the e-reader market: Non-backlit, viewable in sunlight, longer battery life, super-fast refresh rates....

It is expensive, so it is difficult to believe that we'll see it on a sub-$1k tablet, if Apple indeed introduces such device in the next couple of months.

But if it does, others will follow shortly, and OLED might be a game-changer, in high-volume production.

If a tablet can last for a day of reading, it will be right up there with iRex, in terms of battery life. Which, while not stellar, is at the point of acceptable for a reader. And it will be in glorious color, which opens up a lot of other publishing possibilities.

I guess, we'll find out in a few weeks. Or months.... But my (often wrong) sense is, Amazon might have known, that something "wicked" this way comes, and that's why it had this out of nowhere Kindle DX announcement.

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Actually, very little of what kamm says is true,

Pretty lame trolling, pal.

Everything I said is true, I stand by my words unlike you - either man up and prove me wrong or you will remain a pathetic troll...

at least on this topic (as well as on the topic of the quality of US universities, and a few others

It's pretty pathetic to say things like this without offering anything else, y'know... we're all ears - explain or you shall remain a troll and not be feeded as such...

) A (very) little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

Hell yes, you just proved it multiple times - should I list it how many times you've been completely off here?

Actually if I think abotu it you haven't shown even a little knowledge on the topic so you're not considered dangerous at all, trust me.

[Alphapheemail]

Originally Posted by kazbates

It is very disheartening that a simple question as to whether an ebook reader developed and marketed by Apple would drastically cut into Kindle sales, can deteriorate into an Apple bashing session.

:::siiigh:::

[kamm]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

That may be all true, but all that matters to us non-techies is having a product that works well and is simple and easy to use.

Yeah and I said there are plenty of even better devices.

The techies like you can find all kinds of faults with products, but those of us who don't give a flying f*** about technology and it's in and outs and just want a product we can pick up and use are very well served by simple to use devices such as the Kindle or the iPhone.

And I believe an eventual tablet by Apple would do the same thing. Be very intuitive and idiot proof and a solid device for people who just want something to surf the net, watch movies, have a planner, read some books etc.

It may no meet the standards of power users and techies, but who cares? That's a small niche and Apple couldn't care less about them. The money is in the mainstream with the Joe Six Packs who just expect to buy stuff and do the basic advertised functions with ease.

I could care less if Apple or any other company is an innovator or just steals other ideas. I care that a company puts out a device that does what I need it to do and is easy as hell to use. Again, brand loyalty is for suckers, so I could careless if it's innovative or not as long as it works the way I think it should.

The problem is this US market and its pathetic state - this is the perfect example: 'gee, iPhone - just works' which, if you look at face value isn't true at all.

How can you claim it works when you cannot even copy/paste??? You can't send a picture to anyone (no MMS), if your battery dies you can't just get a new one' I cannot use wireless headsets for music, you are forced to use an iditoic software to move files off and on to it (iTunes)...

...if you look at these you will notice that none of these are "tech" issues, I deliberately left out my personal grievances (lack of multitasking, lack of open platform, Apple's heavy-handed censorship, AT&T's abusive pricing for a very crappy data service etc.)

Anyway, my point is that I think it's more than naive to believe Apple will bring a "game changer" to the market - ebook readers must be cheap, first and foremost, that's the only thing that could shake up this market (adoption en masse, that is.)

[montsnmags]

Back at post#55 a Moderator (Nate) said to keep things civil. Is it possible for that advice to be taken and, if anyone finds themselves unable that they remove themselves from the discussion before a Moderator obliges them to?

Cheers,
Marc

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Gideon

@kamm
Cliche or not, doesn't mean it isn't true. Some of us would rather be able to discuss these issues without it deteriorating into a "Apple sucks" "or Apple just makes overpriced junk" blah blah blah. That sort of vitriol isn't particularly useful. We might as well be arguing if the 360 or PS3 is a better device.

The claim of "fanboy" or "apple cult" or whatever is generally the first thing said in such conversations. Yes, it's stupid to have an irrational devotion to a company. I've not seen much of evidence in this thread of that - it's been a pretty back and forth conversation and the people saying "they could make such a product" in no way means "APPLE IS TEH AWESOME and EVERYONE ELSE SUCKS." There have been fans, and there have been advocates but it's not been fanboy central over here.

This conversation, and unfortunately, largely beginning with you - has taken on the tone of something out of a Fark thread.

You know, I'm an annoyingly fact-based person so let me give you a few links to see how I think this Apple-zealotry started here:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...51&postcount=3 <-yes, the first of such posts was yours...

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=14 <- our least informed poster

Anyway, everyone's free to express his opinion, I think.

Apple, whatever else one may think, has over the last few years managed to get their act together (before the intel chips I wouldn't go near one myself) and has beaten the hell (or is in the process of doing so) out of both the cellphone and the personal music market.

No offense but I'd call it nonsense. In fact double nonsense.
Even despite taking full advantage of the completely distorted, abusive, non-competitive US cell market Apple's single device (iPhone 3G) barely the second behind RIM, besieged by Blackberries from all sides.
Outside of the US - countries with competitive cell market, you know - they have a single-digit market share...

Music players - yes, they did "beat the hell out of the market" (whatever that means ) in terms of sales - but this market was about to explode, existed well before the iPod and iMTS was never more than controlled-closed platform of their own money-making 'econosphere', if it had any effect then it was making the non-DRM market stronger (quite the opposite Apple wanted to achieve regardless of their claims.).

And is it for everyone? No. But it'd be stupid to deny that they are popular and that the people that do use them generally enjoy them. That's not something we see a lot with tech - enjoyment of use. We tend to have to use technology despite itself - we value that advantage of the general pain in the ass we have to deal with to use it.

I tend to agree here though it really depends on the person. Also I don't think anyone ever claimed Apple is not popular or competent, you're fighting your own strawman here, I think.

Look at eReaders - if one really wants to get a lot of mileage out of one's device, you have to work for it! I have Windows installed for the SOLE reason of being able to use the MobiCreator program! I spend hours editing documents to work properly! And most of us here, being a fan community, do similar things!

That's exactly what I meant above - it really depends on the person. Some might view this as lack of design from the software/hardware maker, some, like you, look it as fun.

I think that's one of the reasons we see Apple Fanboys - they get to enjoy using their technology instead of having to worry about it. And again - this is a generalization. But it's also a fair one - some Apple users may be schmucks, but they love their computers and ipods and crap because they just get the pleasure of it without the fight.

It is a generalization and a pretty sweeping one at that - I can point you to plenty of topics where you can witness the shortcomings of Apple softwares, the annoying issues one has to find a way around.
It's nowhere better than Windows or linux - in many cases it's worse due to its lacking/limited software library.

Some people want the fight, some need it. But not all of us. I'm no Apple Fanboy... Apple does a lot wrong and has done a lot wrong. But I love how beautifully my Macbook and iMac play together. I love how easy it is to use a MacMini as a media center integrated with the rest of my home system. And I could replicate almost all of it for maybe... oh... 25% less on PC's. And I'd spend an ENORMOUS amount of time dealing with it, coaxing it into position. My time is worth enough to me to say "screw it! I'm getting a Mac!" And that's common!

As long as you stay within their econosphere you're safe and sound, no question about it. bad things only start happening when you try to put it into work in a bigger network, o play with others nicely - lack of meaningful directory services support, DFS support etc just a pain to support in a mostly Windows-based corporate world... my sysadmin could go on and on how many times he has to 'clue up' Mac users about even basic things like networked computers or how email works my favorite line from a very high-ranking big pharma exec, asking the other one: "I heard that Macs aren't that good for email, right?" )

You get the occasional bad experience, but when you have hardware problems and you're under warranty... you are taken care of well! My vid card went out on my iMac - it was out of warranty. It took them about a week longer to fix than it was supposed to because they broke something in it while fixing it. They upgraded my video card and fixed it all and didn't charge me a dime. I had some dust in my iPhone, the guy took a look at it and handed me a new one. Total time? 10 minutes. And because Apple has MobileMe (not the best service, but it has its moments) in just a few minutes my new iPhone had all the right contact info and bookmarks.

...but if you have anything else than iPhone you can choose between providers rather than being locked into one system...

Compare that to what most people experience in those situations with Dell or their cell company or whatever.

Actually CS has little to do what I was saying but sure, let's discuss it. FYI Dell made pretty serious efforts to tidy up its CS operations, I'd rate them ahead of HP now (and I am a huge fan of HP's WS support and it's 7PM cutoff for overnight warranty shipping etc, all included free for 3 years with any WS).

You don't think that means something to most people? They get their time and dignity back! Some of us might be able to do all of our own stuff, but most people can't - and shouldn't have to. I'd much rather have the non-profit directors I know that have me help with their tech be out saving the world than screwing with their computers! And so would they.

Sure, I agree. OTOH the "geniuses' replaced my dead 250GB HDD with a 100GB one (why did it take 3 days, I have no idea) - I never thought I had to check the results of such a simple operation especially nto when it took 3 days... next day back to the store, a major PITA, I'd have preferred the HP/Dell/Amazon way, to egt prepaid shipping with pick up.
My point is they have just as many bumps as others and often their 'in-store' approach is rather annoying.

Ultimately, real discussion of a product killer is going to be a bit silly at this stage in the game (hypothetical product and all) but there is a lot of very good reasons to think that if Apple came out with such a device and it could read ebooks that it would seriously dent the unitasker ebook market. The zeitgeist about Apple is going in the direction I outlined above... there's TRUST there. It may be misplaced, but it is there.

I disagree, I think they have a good shot at the high-end nebtook/tablet market but no shot at the ebook readers whatsoever.

It's not about them being innovators, no one cares about that sort of garbage except techies.

Yeah, because 2without innovators you can have anything from Apple... interesting logic you got there, pal.


[quote] It's about them turning whatever in to something that people WANT to use, enjoy using, and ideally - just let them use the damn thing! I don't care who made tablets or ebooks or anything else - I care about who can provide me with a device that is pleasant to use, stable, and provides me with the content I want at a reasonable rate.
[/qutoe]

Or so you are being told by the marketing dept - I'm sure they are iggling when tyhey read posts like this.

Good corporate subjects, that's what we have become...

[kamm]

Originally Posted by montsnmags

Back at post#55 a Moderator (Nate) said to keep things civil. Is it possible for that advice to be taken and, if anyone finds themselves unable that they remove themselves from the discussion before a Moderator obliges them to?

Cheers,
Marc

I already reported the trolling...

[pking36330]

Originally Posted by kamm

Anyway, my point is that I think it's more than naive to believe Apple will bring a "game changer" to the market - ebook readers must be cheap, first and foremost, that's the only thing that could shake up this market (adoption en masse, that is.)

kamm, you think it's naive that an Apple tablet might be a "game changer" and I think you are naive to think that potential isn't very credible.

You ranted about the "idiotic software" that Apple forces you to use (iTunes), but I think you need to look at the facts about how many people are voting with their wallet that iTunes is acceptable (or even preferred).

A recent annual teen survey posted on CNET reveals 92% market pentration for Apple iPods and a near 100% response that teens forecast their next device would be an iPod. And I'm old enough to remeber that Apple came to the portable music business pretty late and when they first introduced the iPod is was just a pretty toy. Now iPod is the crushing dominant force in portable music. And it didn't get to be the 800 lb gorilla by being cheap, it did by offering "idiotic software" that made it incredibly simple to use through forced standardization.

You may not want to emotionally admit that an Apple tablet can be a "game changer", but you have to intellectually admit that Apple's model includes factors (customer service, sleek design, limited options, etc.) that play well with the populace if not with tech-savvy folks like you. Maybe Apple shouldn't be able to shake things up in the eReader world, but I believe it naive to think they won't.

[kamm]

Originally Posted by pking36330

kamm, you think it's naive that an Apple tablet might be a "game changer" and I think you are naive to think that potential isn't very credible.

You ranted about the "idiotic software" that Apple forces you to use (iTunes), but I think you need to look at the facts about how many people are voting with their wallet that iTunes is acceptable (or even preferred).

A recent annual teen survey posted on CNET reveals 92% market pentration for Apple iPods and a near 100% response that teens forecast their next device would be an iPod. And I'm old enough to remeber that Apple came to the portable music business pretty late and when they first introduced the iPod is was just a pretty toy. Now iPod is the crushing dominant force in portable music. And it didn't get to be the 800 lb gorilla by being cheap, it did by offering "idiotic software" that made it incredibly simple to use through forced standardization.

1. Zune never been a serious contender, it's just the usual "we can do it too" MS response and subsequent money grabbing.

2. That nasty little Russian site and its renewed versions - AoMP3, alltunes, mp3sparks etc - don't report numbers but it was widely agreed to have sold more music than all iMTS operation together. Funny thing, huh?
And all this happened despite the US (using fully illegal market control through VISA and MC) banned even payment proxies, blocked payments every possible way - it speaks volumes about the market realities in iMTS operates and claims its 'success', don't you think?

Facts are tricky animals - you think you got the picture then suddenly some new info arrives and changes the entire picture...

You may not want to emotionally admit that an Apple tablet can be a "game changer", but you have to intellectually admit that Apple's model includes factors (customer service, sleek design, limited options, etc.) that play well with the populace if not with tech-savvy folks like you. Maybe Apple shouldn't be able to shake things up in the eReader world, but I believe it naive to think they won't.

It has nothing to do with emotions. You guys need to learn how get better information - stop scooping up only those prepackaged info off US/corporate sites feed you when they depend advertisement placed by the very companies they report about like CNET...
Seriously, start reading around the globe - when see any notes from an "analysts" (= paid mouthpieces who try to influence the markets to their or their paymasters advantage) I usually go and check the background of every possible connections.

Here's an example: this Apple tablet implies some OLED news - I think it is obviously to pump both Apple and OLED stocks, nothing to see here, as others correctly pointed out already it's common prior to WWDCs etc.

Now if you check other news sources you will see that it's been reported that Wintek has been selected as one of the mfrs for the upcoming Apple tablet (they already supply LCDs for existing products) so a quick glance at their site will tell you that their curernt touch panel's specs are pretty average, nothing to see here as far as OLED rumors goes... how about a new product announcement, just prior to Apple's rollout? Well, it'd be highly unusual to say the least - here's an interview with Dialog's head clearly saying their latest PMOLED development won't be ready before 2010 -, I don't think an independent vendor would ever do such things when he is beating in a highly competitive Asian semi market especially after pouring in R&D millions and watching its own stocks but even so modifying existing mfr'ing lines would make it to the news anyway (building a new plant takes over a year.)
Finetech Japan just ended and while they showed a lot of advanced OLED stuff economically it's not feasible to make netbook with OLED screen (think of $1000+ price tag) - OLED laptops perhaps, though obviously priced up in the high-end (thin of 15" one for $2k+) segment.

All this is speculative analysis, of course but based on all this info I dare to say it's highly unlikely that Apple can bring a competitively-priced OLED-based tablet to the market (and ebook reader is almost impossible.) OLED MBP? Sure, why not.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by kamm

I already reported the trolling...

Speaking as a second Moderator: it doesn't necessarily take more that one to be uncivil, but in this case, the lack of civility has not been one-way.

MobileRead is not a forum that tolerates disrespectful treatment between its members. There are plenty of places on the 'net for flaming, this isn't one of them.

Certainly members are entitled to disagree with one another, and to discuss that disagreement -- so long as the discussion remains respectful.

If you find yourself unable to remain civil in a discussion, please do not participate in it.

If you find yourself unable to be civil to a given fellow member, feel free to make use of the forum's "Ignore" function, which can be set to prevent you from seeing that members posts.

Now, for those who can continue in the discussion in a civil manner, please do so, for those who cannot, please find another topic somewhere else in the forum where you can remain respectful.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by kamm

All this is speculative analysis, of course but based on all this info I dare to say it's highly unlikely that Apple can bring a competitively-priced OLED-based tablet to the market (and ebook reader is almost impossible.)

I agree. The substantive OLED information is about the iPhone, see for example Next iPhone to launch July 17 with OLED display and glowing Apple logo?. Note the "?" at the end, even for the iPhone an OLED screen might be too expensive. It is the kind of tech that Apple likes though - so this might be correct.

There now seems little doubt that Apple is buying a ton of (conventional) 10" touch screens. These could be for a netbook but a tablet seems more likely. Apple has introduced game-changing devices in the past, and so they might do the same with a tablet. Note the might, since the game-changing part probably isn't the screen but the software. I'm not convinced that either a larger iPod Touch or a shrunk Mac will end up being a game changer, but Apple could surprise me. If they do introduce a tablet, then they will expect to sell at least a million of them. This is game changing in itself for tablets, and since everyone follows Apple's trends there would then be a raft of copycats.

[JSWolf]

Why is it that battery technology is not getting better to match that of the portable devices?